Gustave, rights and wrongs and fantasies in one person.
Of course you are basically right in what you say about Germany and German's xenophobia. Many Germans, like many other Europeans, are hidden xenophobic, and in the past few years more do admit publicly to their opinion than in earlier years. Also there have been cases of media campaigns that caused me to be ashamed of my country, like that Lutheran pastor who didn't want to have the muezzin's tape played publicly in his district. The administration ruled in favor of the mosque, however.
But anyway I have never been patriotic, nor have I ever been asked to be patriotic, so why should I be ashamed?
Your sources are excellent in quality and width. Also they are not all German, British or French, so I don't see why I should restrict myself to sources D/GB/F in the future. I especially like the list of politically motivated violence against Turks in Germany (the source is from America, it seems). It also shows some public reaction in favor of Turks, other foreigners, and asylum seekers by masses of "mainstream Germans" (whatever that may mean).
To my experience with you it was needed however that I insist on facts, your first assumptions still seem to overshoot compared to the sources that you presented later.
Your request for sources and references from me is rightful. I did not often present sources, especially never in the current "Xenophobia in Germany" discussion. My personal remembrance is of course not verifiable to any listener. So I should not seem to be more than I am. Just somebody who wanted to discuss about politics and his own feelings. You are even more rightful to claim sources, as I once called for sources from you. In that case you didn't deliver, though, and couldn't deliver, of course, evidence for your then supposition that I am a racist.
On the other hand I have, as far as I can see, in many cases prevailed over your opinion by support of my opinion found in the sources you presented. The latest case may be the exceptionality of double citizenship in German law. It is confirmed as the main obstacle hindering most Turkish residents of Germany to apply for German citizenship by your source. This is what I first said after you had claimed that Germany prohibits Turks from becoming German citizens based on their Turkish ethnicity.
Additionally I learned the exact extent of severity of the Turkish state's measures against its' Nationals, when they curb Turk citizenship in order to gain the German one. I think we should at first call for Turkey to allow non-Turkish Nationals to inherit real estate in Turkey, then for Germany to allow double citizenship or easier access at least to German citizenship.
I think I have several times expressed that I have no reservation against any mass of Turks entering German citizenship.
I had said also that the reason that hinders Turks in Germany to enter German citizenship is not to be sought in Germanys restrictive laws and practice alone, but can be traced back equally well to Turkey.
But even if I had not found new resource for my prior claims in your sources, I would thank you very much for their publication in this thread, because of their high quality and the detailed picture they give.
I was always aware that Turks (and other foreign "Gastarbeiter"s) positively contribute to the German economy. It is true that many people in Germany don't know or accept this fact. Sadly, if you tell that fact to a German racist, he will triumphantly throw it back into your face and say: "Huh, there you see, they are taking MY job and earning MY money."
I will never know whether this antilogics is the reason why the basic fact now has comparatively low profile in our media.
In industry Turkish workers are highly estimated for a high working morale and low ill rates. These characteristic features are the opposite of a typical German worker nowadays. Also, everybody who walks our inner cities with open eyes will see how Turkish shop-owners bring life to places that otherwise might degrade and loose living quality. Often they start with thin capital and high work input. They can materialise one of the
American dreams, starting as dish-washer, ending up wealthy, in Germany. Also he will sometimes notice police(wo)men of Turkish or other ethnicities, e.g. Egyptian. (Remember that boy's father from my previous post. It was 1986, but then he had this job already since several years.)
When I pointed out that the practice of citizenship granting is not as restrictive as the 86-year-old-law by giving some examples from my own childhood and youth experiences I acted distinctly on your prompt.
Please state now again that German authorities would use exceptions to the law selectively for Canadian, but not for Turkish applicants.
My memories are of course unproven, and I can not give further references. Also they are not from the present, but reach back 12 to 24 years, and on a second thought I admit it may be, that the practice has changed. Even there can have been several changes in opposite
directions.
I will not descend to such a low level as you proposed and ask some of my friends to explain themselves here. What should it help anyway ? I could have written anything myself.
I once said the Turkish interest is to bind the Turkish inhabitants of Germany to Turkey, and not let them go easily. I assumed Turkey has a money interest. It is not opposed to the fact that the Turkish in Germany contribute positively to German economy. Also it may well be that a return rate of, say, 30 per cent would switch the sign of the balance. Return rates are below 2 per cent at present, as far I know this is relatively constant in the long run, indicating some stability of the feelings of the Turkish inhabitants of Germany against their more recent home.
Apart from a money interest there can be other reasons also, of course. Surely the millions of Turks living in Germany are witnesses of another political culture to their relatives at home. They would constitute at present an important part of the Turkish electorate anyway, if ballot via letter is allowed for Turkey, what I am not sure of. So any Istanbul government should try to address them directly and win their favor. Additionally sometimes Israeli politicians are thought to speak mainly to American Jews even when giving press conferences in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, and sometimes I thought the US American engagement on the Northern Irish peace process (that senator, whose name I forgot, and who mediated in the talks that led to the so called "Good Friday agreement" has been awarded the "Hessischer Friedenspreis"
in Wiesbaden on the 14th of June, BTW) can only be explained by the trial of the American government to win support among those citizens of the US who see themselves as of Irish descent. In a similar way political action of Turkey on behalf of the Turks in Germany will influence Turkeys domestic policy, justifying the priority with which things are handled by Istanbul.
I think the engagement of Istanbul was the ultimate reason that tipped the Hessenwahl on 10 Feb 99 that took away Schroeder's upper house majority. The anti-opening rhethorics of the CDU (that lost in my eyes the justification for the C in their name by exercising this dirt) was strongly aggravated and won credibility by the anouncements of the Turkish prime minister. He promised to take all possible influence on German domestic politics through the future electoral power of Turkish citizens in Germany. When the present electoral population of Hesse became aware of the fact that the combined power of those Turkish that would gain German citizenship under the then proposed law could give a most comfortable majority to the Chancellor, or his opponent, at choice of a politician in Turkey, their worst dreams were materialized. I think that is not so much based on ethnic reservations against Turkish Nationals, but more on the fact that during the last three years most of the violent acts against Turks in Germany were traced back by police to the Turkish Kurds in Germany, and reprisals. Add to this what I said about the insecurity of human rights in Turkey (fact well-known to many progressivist Germans), and you have some better picture than simply claiming ethnic resentment.
Anyway I think Istanbul is opposed to Turks becoming Germans, and adds to the problems, instead of finding to help a solution.
BTW you indicted me before a council of your friends and I was found guilty of not having been educated in continental Europe. The evidence and conclusion are very doubt-laden.
I confess now more specifically to have German citizenship since my birth. I have been educated in Germany (that is part of continental Europe, right?). I did not leave Germany before I was six (my first holiday, Austria), and didn't leave the German language region before I was ten (my second holiday, Britain). I was living in one little town until I reached the age of nineteen. I am now still living in 100km range of that place.
At my working place the communication language is English (or a lingo similar to it). German has only fringe use there. I should also confess that I cannot take part in French language discussions.
I think I qualify for being a German, by the abovesaid. But I do not understand why this is so important for you, and why I would be such a danger to you that you cannot accept me at face value.
My problem is I cannot assess whether it was fun and game when you assumed different nationalities and motives for me, or whether you are serious about hurting my credibility by calling me an American Jew, a British, a Canadian, a piece of bourgeosie, whatever.
In the former case I would like to join that game and tried to do so in my answer to your French/Denard/Mossad question. Anyway I must confess that I did not go back to the sources and read it all up but only recollected what Neocon had said to me and something you may have said before.
In the latter case I think you qualify for an ethnic (or, in one case, social) chauvinist and are not worth my comments.
Things would be much easier for me if you had considered apologizing for calling me a racist once you could not confirm your statement by any citations from me.
Still reaching out for a mutual understanding, MNI. |
