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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: greenspirit who wrote (42948)	7/1/1999 10:30:00 PM
From: Ilaine	Respond to of 108807

Michael, you're just plain flat wrong about commerce and capitalism being Christian, or Judeo-Christian. Anyone who's ever negotiated with a Muslim, or an Asian, can tell you how wrong you are. Chinese, Japanese, VietNamese, Pakistanis, Hindus, Muslims, Nigerians, among countless others, are all ardent practitioners of commerce and capitalism.

To: greenspirit who wrote (42948)	7/1/1999 11:00:00 PM
From: jbe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

You misunderstood my point, Michael. Perhaps that is my fault, so I will try to make the point clearer. Where chimpanzees are concerned, I tried to argue that they are capable of rudimentary reasoning. That is, they could be trained to recognize currency & coin as banana substitutes. The implication, which I did not spell out, is that they would not be able to proceed beyond that, because they did not have enough reasoning power, or intelligence. Then comes the main point: Since the most vicious human being is capable of reasoning -- often of reasoning very well -- it cannot be equated with spirituality. In other words, intelligence and spirituality are not the same thing! Chimps have nothing to do with it! Very bright people can be "unspiritual," and stupid ones can be "spiritual"! I would not agree that commerce is "spiritual." It requires intelligence, but not, in my book, "spirituality." But of course, you never defined "spirituality." I have the same problem with the rest of your post. You either do not define your terms, or you use them in a certain limited sense (usually pejorative), on the assumption that your definition is universally accepted. For example, you use three terms in your fourth paragraph: secular humanism, political Left, and socialism. For some people, these terms are neutral, non-emotive. For you, they are not, as is clear largely from the context (e.g., "secular humanism,which recognizes no authority...."). If you really want dialogue, Michael, I would suggest defining your terms, and in as neutral a way as possible, or avoiding these great big loaded buzzwords altogether. At least, if you'd like a dialogue with me. <g> Joan

To: greenspirit who wrote (42948)	7/1/1999 11:57:00 PM
From: Father Terrence	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Michael: 1. Some apes do barter (have commerce) with each other. 2. Some of the best traders I have ever met are in West Africa. They are not christians. Some are mystics, animists, others simply believe in some universal force, but that's as far as they go. They have none of the christian platitudes, but understand the rudiments of capitalism quite well. 3. What drives the markets (such as the equity markets) are two things: greed and fear. What causes market fluctuations are supply and demand ebbing and flowing from the waves of greed and fear. Nowhere does religion, the bible or spirituality enter the equation. The two great mottoes of the USA are: "From One Many" and "Don't Tread on Me". FT