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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: O'Hara who wrote (26021)	7/7/1999 12:53:00 AM
From: O'Hara	Respond to of 39621

†...HI Brumar, about that handshake...† how about this >< ? Any other ideas....Put them out there everybody...and we'll vote. Good night all. Shalom...><> Psalm 133

To: O'Hara who wrote (26021)	7/7/1999 9:13:00 AM
From: Brumar89	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Hi, my earliest thoughts about abortion and my early thinking that it was the same thing as murder were based on the biological fact the tissue of a fetus is that of a unique individual. Therefore why shouldn't it be murder? I was looking at it strictly on my own using my own individual reasoning. I changed my opinion only when I learned (and this is still my belief) that all western religious traditions which are the basis of our system of ethics, while opposing abortion as a sin, have not considered it the sin of murder. I don't think I'm wrong about this. The issue is does the unborn child possess a soul? I sincerely believe that all western religious traditions have said no to this question up until the last few decades when the socio-political conflict over abortion began. Do you know of any evidence to the contrary that dates back to before say the '60's? This country is full of graveyards, many of them church affiliated. 10-30% of the people buried in them ought to be deaths from miscarriage if the unborn child possesses a soul. Where are all the graves of miscarriages? I believe you when you tell me there are some private memorials after miscarriages. I just haven't seen them but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Now let me look at that passage you quoted. I've read this before and I'm of the opinion it actually supports my present position. Exod 21:22-23 22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. OK, here a miscarriage has happened but nothing else (mischief). The passage says the party responsible for causing the miscarriage shall be punished by paying a sum to be determined by the judges. The principle of life for life was laid down in the Bible. That the death penalty wasn't applied above (where a miscarriage has occurred) but only monetary damages were to be awarded, shows that a life, in the opinion of this scripture, had not been taken. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Here the life for life principle is applied but only after something else (mischief), presumably the loss of the woman's life, has occurred. The "mischief" for which death is imposed in verse 23 can not be the death of the fetus because that had occurred in the base case discussed in the verse 22. See what I mean? I kind of regret bringing up the abortion issue as I know how strong feelings are on it and the ill will this issue can bring out. It happened as a byproduct of discussing something else. Abortion isn't a hot button with me and I have no personal experience with it. Will close as I need to get to work. I admire your positive postings. Clearly you are a peace-maker. Bruce