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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Brumar89 who wrote (26098)	7/8/1999 11:10:00 PM
From: PROLIFE	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

You mean I am gonna agree with you?? oh maannnn.........:o) The concept of the Church as the "New Israel" which inherits "Old Israel's" position with God is a spiritual concept. That's what Paul is talking about - the church as a spiritual Israel. I doubt you would disagree with this - note the reference in the passage you quoted to circumcision of "the heart, in the spirit". Correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, that is what I see. John 4:21-26 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he." I am struck by the fact that Jesus would tell a Samaritan woman that she would worship the Father. I don't think Paul's teaching which you quoted in Galations "There is neither Jew nor Greek..." means that Christians are required to deny the continued legitimate existence in the flesh of Jews as Jews anymore than they have to deny the same about Greeks or male or female. agreed. To sum up, it is not necessary for Christians to deny, denigrate, oppose, or in any way have a problem with the continued physical existence in the world of "Old Israel" and/or "Old Israel's" physical descendents in order to assert their own status as spiritual descendents of Abraham. Agreed. dan

To: Brumar89 who wrote (26098)	7/9/1999 12:21:00 AM
From: Jamey	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Good Evening, Bruce. Your concepts are valid only provided that you believe that Christ's second coming is still in the future. We have been told for at least 1 and 1/2 centuries that we are living in the end times and Christ's return is imminent. Since you seem very interested in spiritual Israel and the inheritance of the physical Jew I am going to present another view point that you might consider. At this point, I am not comitting my personal views on this. I am only getting your input. "23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." Mathew 10:23 "27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Mathew 16:27,28 "34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Mathew 24:34 "7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." 1 Peter 4:7 "8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. 9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door." James 5:8,9 These verses are pointing to the fall of Jerusalem. According to these passages, Jesus did return right on schedule. Now for years I have been in agreement with the dispensational teachers of this time such as Darby, Scoefield, and Hal Lindsay. Over a hundred years ago, a pastor named J. Stuart Russell wrote a book called The Parousia which was a doctrine of our Lord's second coming. Although I do not agree with all of Stuart's conclusions, this would hold in agreement with Jesus prophesies and would also line up with the imminency of the apostles expectation of the Lord's coming in their generation. Either it happened or Jesus and the disciples were mistaken, which to me is unthinkable. This teaches a realized spiritual salvation in Christ and the Church now, instead of being a frustrated hope of the so-called delay of Christ for over 1900 years. Do you think that the disciples and all the Christians of that time would have been as serious minded about these events if they thought that it would still be over 1900 years off. Jesus told them that some of them would still be living when He returned with thousands of His angels.(This was not the case when the transfiguration occured.) If you care to look into this more deeply this is a link to Stuart's online book. preteristarchive.com Like I say, I do not want any arguments from anyone about the preturist doctrine. I simply want others who wish to discuss this to join in in a friendly way so that we all can hopefully learn from this. Regards, brightstar