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To: Andy Thomas who wrote (26396)7/28/1999 10:15:00 AM
From: Sam Ferguson  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 39621
 
Andy let me make it clear that each of us choose our own path and I do not care to proselyte for any organized religion or sect. Apparently you believe in the bible as truth. I regard it in a different light.

You have quoted the old testament in asking me my opinion of what it means. I wouldn't attempt to argue this for it has been argued for hundreds of years by the greatest of minds and still is not settled.
Much of it is myth misunderstood and reported as actual history.

I simply state that the God of the old testament if as portrayed is of such evil nature and unfair that if alive today would be executed for it. The God I know and worship is not of either testament but is an integral part of my mind.

You quoted some of the modern Gnostic material that has been written but I am not knowledgeable of what their thoughts are. If you will get the true definition of gnostic it means knowing from an inner revelation. I experienced this inner knowledge many years ago and
that is why I say I am of Gnostic persuasion. I do try to learn and know as much as possible as knowledge is my salvation from ignorance.



To: Andy Thomas who wrote (26396)7/28/1999 11:39:00 AM
From: Barnabus  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
A remarkable post. Thank you very much. There has been so much "knowledge" given here on this thread that some of us have "tired" of keeping up the bantering at times.
It is obvious that "experience", "political correctness", the "spoiled American" world view comes to the front. And of course, it is politically correct to bash Christians - but to be kind to gays and lesbians.
A lot of people think they can improve on God and put mush in his mouth and declare: "This is what God says."
Again, thanks for your fine post.

OMB



To: Andy Thomas who wrote (26396)7/28/1999 2:19:00 PM
From: Emile Vidrine  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 39621
 
The Church and Jewish Ideology

(Reprinted from SOBRAN'S, May 1999, page 4)

The prevalent Jewish myth today is not the founding myth of Abraham or Moses on Sinai, but
the story of Jewish persecution. In our time the Jews are defined less by ancestry than by
“anti-Semitism,” which is cited for many purposes, including the legitimation of the state of Israel.
Most Zionists no longer claim that God gave the Holy Land to the Jews; instead they contend that
the Jewish state is necessary as a haven for world Jewry.

According to this modern myth, the Jews are in no way responsible for their own unpopularity
from ancient times. What, then, is the source of such persistent hostility to this fundamentally innocent
people? Why, the Catholic Church, of course!

Many Jewish scholars find the seed of anti-Semitism in the Gospels of Matthew and John, where
the Jews are depicted as engineering the Crucifixion, with the assistance of Romans who “know not
what they do.” Some Jews have even demanded that the offending passages be deleted from the
Scriptures, not realizing (or caring) that Christians regard their holy books as off-limits to human
editing. Others persist in blaming Pius XII for failing to condemn Nazism more strongly for its
persecution of the Jews of Europe. The Catholic Church in particular has been targeted as the
historic matrix of anti-Semitism; and unfortunately, many churchmen have accepted the role of
defendant against accusers who will never acquit the Church or drop the case.

In recent years the Vatican has tried, as far as possible, to appease Jewish objections. The
Second Vatican Council, mindful of Nazi crimes, proclaimed that today's Jews don't share the guilt
of the Jews who conspired to murder Christ. Pope John Paul II has been especially eager to
cultivate good relations with the Jews, even making an unprecedented visit to a Roman synagogue a
few years ago. He has gone so far as to name Steven Spielberg's Schindler's List as one of his
favorite films — though it contains scenes of nudity and simulated intercourse.

In this spirit, the Vatican last year promulgated We Remember, a statement of repentance for the
failures of the Church and the mass of Christians during the Holocaust (or Shoah, the Hebrew word
that has become current lately). Its theme was that “erroneous and unjust interpretations of the New
Testament” have contributed to anti-Semitism; and that the Church, though never a party to
persecution, should have done more to oppose the “unspeakable tragedy” of the Shoah, which “can
never be forgotten.” The statement also affirmed the Church's “very close bonds of spiritual kinship
with the Jewish people” and the “Hebrew roots of [Catholic] faith.”

Many Jews resented the statement's exculpation of the Church for the Shoah itself. The
document distinguished sharply between regrettable Christian attitudes toward the Jews throughout
European history (it made no reference to Jewish attitudes toward Christians) and the virulent
nationalist and racialist anti-Semitism that arose in the nineteenth century. Predictably, a Jewish
historian has rejected this distinction.

In an article in the April issue of Commentary, “The Pope, the Church, and the Jews,” Robert S.
Wistrich, professor of modern Jewish history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, attacks We
Remember for defending Pius XII and for minimizing the Church's guilty role in fostering
anti-Semitism through the ages. Wistrich belittles Pius's efforts to protect Jews as not only insufficient
but lacking in “moral courage.” As for the nineteenth-century anti-Semitic ideologies, they
“presupposed a cultural framework that had been fashioned by centuries of medieval Christian
theology, ecclesiastical policy, and popular religious myth.”

This is nothing new for Commentary, which has previously carried articles blaming Christianity
itself for the Holocaust. Wistrich doesn't cite, though he might as well have, the charge of the Jewish
scholar Jules Isaac that “the permanent and latent source of anti-Semitism is none other than
Christian religious teaching of every description, and the traditional, tendentious interpretation of the
Scriptures.” Isaac's work and influence helped shape the Second Vatican Council's statement about
the Jews.

By such reasoning as Wistrich's, it would be easy to blame the Jews for bringing persecution on
themselves. After all, they have been unpopular not only in Christian countries, but in pagan and
Muslim lands. Cicero, Tacitus, Juvenal, and other Roman authors inveighed against them. They have
repeatedly migrated to Christian countries and have been repeatedly expelled, for reasons that have
usually had little to do with theology — though the obscene blasphemies against Christ and his
mother in the Talmud, unique in religious literature, besides reflecting oddly on Jewish demands for
Christian tolerance and for the cleansing of offensive passages in the Gospels, have done nothing to
endear the Jews to Christians.

Wistrich mentions none of this. Nor does he mention one of the principal incitements to
anti-Semitism in this century: Jewish participation in Communism, with its terrifying persecution of
Christians. Where is the corresponding statement of Jewish leaders repudiating and repenting the
Jewish role in a cause whose crimes dwarf those of Hitler? Did major Jewish spokesmen or
organizations condemn Communism as it devoured tens of millions of Christians? Did a few brave
Jews in the Soviet Union and the other Communist-ruled countries act, at personal risk, to shield
Christians from arbitrary arrest and murder? Even today, how many Jews condemn Franklin
Roosevelt for his fondness for Stalin, as they would condemn him if he had shown the slightest
partiality to Hitler?

Further, might the Talmudic imprecations against Christ and Christians have helped form the
Bolshevik Jews' anti-Christian animus? Did the Talmud help form the “cultural framework” for the
persecution of Christians, and for the eradication of Christian culture in America today? If so, will
Jews make an effort to expunge the offending passages from the Talmud? How many rabbis speak
of their “spiritual kinship” with Christianity?

The answers to these questions are only too obvious. The Jews, with honorable but ineffectual
exceptions, judge Christians by a standard that doesn't seem to apply to themselves. Or rather, their
single standard is “Is it good for the Jews?”

As shepherd of the Catholic Church, Pius XII was bound to be guided chiefly by the question “Is
it good for the Church?” He was not a Jewish leader, after all, but a Catholic one — a somewhat
neglected point in these controversies. His first duty was to protect the Church amid the madness of
a world war, knowing that its deadliest enemy was not Nazism but Communism (which, with
American assistance, conquered several Catholic nations in Eastern Europe by the war's end). He
did what he could to protect Jews and others too, and the most eloquent testimony to his efforts is
the conversion of Israel Zolli, chief rabbi of Rome, to Catholicism. Zolli even took the baptismal
name Eugenio in honor of Pius, who was born Eugenio Pacelli; he would hardly have done this if he
had seen Pius as indifferent to the persecution of Jews.

Yet Wistrich complains that “in confronting the Shoah, Pius XII's chief concern was less with the
ongoing annihilation of the Jews than with the interests of the Church.” Think of that: a Pope putting
the Church first! Nowadays even the papacy is to be judged in terms of Jewish interests.
Self-absorption can go no further.

It's some consolation that even the treacherous Roosevelt is now being criticized for doing too
little to save Jewish lives. Jewish critics argue that he might have ordered the bombing of railroads
leading to the concentration camps. But the chief effect of such a practice would surely have been to
starve the camps' inmates.

The smear of Pius XII — and of the Church — persists, and will no doubt continue indefinitely,
in the endless campaign to make Christianity and anti-Semitism synonymous. Wistrich barely
acknowledges that the diplomatic Pius may have feared that a more explicit condemnation of Nazism
would have backfired not only against the Church, but against the Jews themselves. Besides, if papal
condemnations of Communism had failed to deter the persecution of Christians, how could Pius
expect papal animadversions against Nazism to be any more efficacious?

Even American Jewish groups refrained from denouncing the Shoah during the war, for fear that
speaking publicly about it might do more harm than good. This policy of silence has resulted in bitter
recriminations between American and European Jews, but it has discouraged few Jews on either
continent from blaming Pius for saying too little.

The prevalent attitude of Christians toward the Jews has been (and remains) not so much hatred
as fear. The Acts of the Apostles tells how the early Church was forced to take various precautions
“for fear of the Jews.” Few deny, or doubt, that this is historically accurate; the tolerance
recommended to Christians has never been a salient trait of the Jews themselves, when they have
held power. On the contrary, the state of Israel is based on an ethnic supremacism that would be
roundly condemned as anti-Semitic if it were enforced against Jews by gentiles. Yet most Jews hotly
resent any suggestion that Zionism is “racist.” (A United Nations declaration to that effect was
eventually repealed in response to American pressure.)

In intellectual life, Jews have been brilliantly subversive of the cultures of the natives they have
lived amongst. Their tendencies, especially in modern times, have been radical and nihilistic. One
thinks of Marx, Freud, and many other shapers of modern thought and authors of reductionist
ideologies. Even Einstein, the greatest of Jewish scientists, was, unlike Sir Isaac Newton, no mere
contemplator of nature's laws; he helped inspire the development of nuclear weapons and
consistently defended the Soviet Union under Stalin.

Jews have generally supported Communism, socialism, liberalism, and secularism; the agenda of
major Jewish groups is the de-Christianization of America, using a debased interpretation of the
“living Constitution” as their instrument. When the Jewish side of an issue is too unpopular to prevail
democratically, the legal arm of Jewry seeks to make the issue a “constitutional” one, appealing to
judicial sovereignty to decide it in defiance of the voters. Overwhelming Jewish support for legal
abortion illustrates that many Jews hate Christian morality more than they revere Jewish tradition
itself. This fanatical antagonism causes anguish to a number of religious, conscientious, and
far-sighted Jews, but they, alas, are outside the Jewish mainstream.

Today, in American politics, journalism, and ecclesiastical circles, fear of Jewish power is
overwhelming. This is most obvious in the dread of incurring the label “anti-Semitic,” in the way
Christians shrink from calling this country “a Christian nation” (a phrase that enrages Jews), and in
the groveling before Israel that has become a virtual requirement for anyone who aspires to high
office. Nobody dares to point out the obvious, that Israel is inimical to the principles Americans
profess to share; nearly everyone in public life pretends that Israel is a model democracy and a
“reliable ally” of the United States, despite repeated episodes of Israeli spying and betrayal against
its chief benefactor. Israel has not only refused to return the documents stolen by Jonathan Pollard; it
continues to press the U.S. Government for his release from prison. In fact Israel exemplifies most of
the “anti-Semitic stereotypes” of yore: it is exclusivist, belligerent, parasitic, amoral, and
underhanded. It feels no obligation to non-Jews, even those who have befriended it.

Most Jews regard conversion to Christianity as the ultimate treason to Jewry and resent Christian
attempts to convert them; never mind that for Christians, concern for the salvation of souls is the
highest charity next to the adoration of God. In Jewish eyes, such charity is next door to persecution.
Jews for Jesus, a convert group, is especially execrated among Jews, and in Israel Christian
proselytization can be punished by law under various pretexts. (Even giving a copy of the New
Testament can be construed as a “bribe.”) Yet Christians, who may not claim a nation of their own,
are taxed to support the Jewish state.

History is replete with the lesson that a country in which the Jews get the upper hand is in danger.
Such was the experience of Europe during Jewish-led Communist revolutions in Russia, Hungary,
Romania, and Germany after World War I. Christians knew that Communism — often called
“Jewish Bolshevism” — would bring awful persecution with the ultimate goal of the annihilation of
Christianity. While the atheistic Soviet regime made war on Christians, murdering tens of thousands
of Orthodox priests, it also showed its true colors by making anti-Semitism a capital crime.



To: Andy Thomas who wrote (26396)7/28/1999 2:26:00 PM
From: Lazarus_Long  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 39621
 
Andy, the only thing I can think that has been more wrong more often than stock-market predictions are predictions of the "last days", "the end of the world".

The world is NOT going to end this year, it is not going to end in 2000, it is not going to end in 2001, or any of the million following years.

Period. If you really believe otherwise, I will bet you $10,000 right now that the world will still be here in 2010. Or you pick the year. The money to be held in a trust account payable to the winner (obviously me if anyone collects). Put up or shut up. You're scaring the sheep.

This belief is stupidity for gullible fools who are willing to be fleeced by con men. Don't join them.