SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Dayuhan who wrote (47530)7/28/1999 9:19:00 AM
From: jbe  Respond to of 108807
 
Steve, I sent this to E yesterday by accident. It was meant for you.

Message 10679477



To: Dayuhan who wrote (47530)7/28/1999 10:26:00 AM
From: jbe  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 108807
 
Pop Culture is not "Our" Culture, Steven. That is something else I think you are missing.

1) You don't read People Magazine, I'll bet. I don't either. I doubt whether there is a single contributor to this thread who reads it. So it does not define "Our" Culture. It is part of "The" Culture, as is The New York Review of Books, at the other extreme, but it is not "Ours." In short, America is made up of a lot of different sub-cultures, some larger, some smaller, all of which add up to "The" Culture.

You make much too much of the commercially oriented Pop Culture component, IMO.

2) I'll bet, also, that if you took a scientifically-designed poll of Americans all over the country, you would find a surprisingly large number of people who a) never heard of JFK Jr.; or b) had heard of him, but did not know of the accident; or c) (the largest category) had heard about it, but knew little of the specific details.

There are a lot of people in this country who either never watch television or read the papers, or who watch television -- but never the news. All the Kennedy hooplah you complain about (I presume -- because I did not watch any myself) was specifically designed to attract these habitual non-news viewers. And each of the channels was competing with all the others for their attention.

3) There is nothing peculiarly American about "celebrity-worship." The Brits have always been worse than the Americans in this respect; yet even though they still have a monarch, they do not seem to be any closer to reestablishing the privileges of the aristocracy.

4) It is very rare in America for an individual to be "worshipped" simply because of family connections. Hardly any one reads the "society pages." The Kennedys are an exception to this rule, for many reasons, one of them being that Kennedys have tended to be as attractive as movie stars (our "true" celebrities)-- and even more "doomed."

5) It might be better if people worshipped "achievement" rather than notoriety (as is the case today). But, here again, I think you might object to the standards used to determine achievement.

Should we celebrate those who have made themselves fabulously rich? (Outside of Bill Gates, what American billionaires are widely known to the American public? Ross Perot doesn't count, because Americans know him through his political campaigns.) Should we celebrate Nobel Prize winners? (What about those who deserve a Nobel, but never got one?) Should we celebrate best-selling authors? (What about those who write much better books?) And so on.

But since "celebrity worship" is an "achievement" of Pop Culture, then of course the "celebrities" will be people who are already constantly on view in Pop Culture -- actors, pop musicians, TV anchors, and the occasional politician (if he/she is photogenic).

Finally, I have to ask: if it bothers you so much, why do you watch/read about it? I don't, so it doesn't bother me. :-)

Joan



To: Dayuhan who wrote (47530)7/28/1999 11:36:00 AM
From: The Philosopher  Respond to of 108807
 
An excellent post.

I remember staying late at night listening on the radio to the Kennedy election results (back in that innocent age we didn't have TV, and they didn't have instant polling that told you by 2:00 Pacific Time who had already won). I was innundated with all the stories and pictures of Cameolt, Jackie and the kids, John Jr. playing under Daddy's desk, etc.

But after Bobby died, my interest in the rest of the family (except for making sure that Chappaquidick stayed alive and Ted never got into the White House) died off. I had no particular knowledge of John John as an adult, vaguely read some of the buzz about George, but aside from that, nothing.

This whole hype was, IMO, media manufactured. I was certainly not touched by his death, I had no affectionate warmth for him, and the majority of the people alive today weren't alive when JFK was killed, so they are going totally on other peoples memories.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (47530)7/28/1999 2:42:00 PM
From: E  Respond to of 108807
 
<<<Some do. I suspect that a lot of those who are reacting so
strongly have very little memory of the Kennedy years.>>>

You don't have to have a first-hand memory of the Kennedy years to have a mental wardrobe of JKjr. images, and images of his parents. They're out there. Christopher, I see, made the same point as you did about this. And if one doesn't watch the TV news or any 'magazine shows,' one might be able to miss those images.

I've never read an issue of People Magazine. I might mention that I have also never watched any program or read any personality-article about the Kennedy family, and had no particular interest in JKjr before this conversation here, in which I became aware of a good deal of what seemed to me undue contempt for the grief of others (not of mine; though I did feel sad when I heard the news.) I didn't even know the name of his wife before her death, though I could have picked it out of a group of three. But usually I do watch the nightly news, and the occasional magazine show. And that was enough to make me feel a personal sadness at the death. (As I said before, there is no TV at my son's place, where I was when the plane crashed, so I also missed what is being called the "media circus" that followed it.)

<<<...precisely why I feel that this reaction says something about our culture...toward whom do we develop feelings of affectionate warmth?>>>

I am in sympathy with you there, and I do think it is a good and interesting question.

In some ways, the obvious ones, it's not a hard question. The most obvious is that we have to have, or feel, a personal familiarity/emotional connection, toward the person. There are others. To me, the emotional attachment felt by so many toward JKjr is much less peculiar than that felt toward movie stars and sports teams and figures. Caring what team of multimillionaires wins in a ball-management contest? To me, it's Give Me a Break time. But I'm only bemused at, and not scathing toward, those who do care.

<<<I think these things show a visceral yearning for inherited
aristocracy, for royalty, for the idea that some people are
inherently better than others, more deserving of attention
and recognition.>>>

Steven, you explicitly offered as an idea that one of the three might conceivably be seen as more deserving because of her business acumen and bilingual status. No one else proposed such a thing. They only expressed felt grief for the one they felt close to. (But the greater media attention to his death than to that of the others may reasonably be assumed to contain an implied component of what you complain about, I see that.)

I must point out that JKjr was a person who was not only a successful business person, his magazine George doing very well, but was a socially conscious person who was engaged in many good works, virtually all of which were done anonymously. I think you simply do not have the information from which to conclude that his death was a lesser loss to society, and less deserving of recognition, in your scales, that was the death of Ms. Bissette.

However, I agree that there is this drive in people to identify, affiliate, with those of much higher status. It is, I suspect, "hard-wired," and it does appear quite pathetic in its modern manifestation as "celebrity-identification." It no doubt appeared less pathetic and more instrumental when the gestures of affiliation and obeisance were made by our puny ancestors to the sharp-eyed, muscular hunter three caves down from the big rock and our sycophantic cave guy ancestor could hope to derive a lump of bear grease next winter in appreciation for the praise-grunts he emitted round the communal fire. (In this metaphor, the powerful hunter is JKjr, or a sports hero, and the disadvantaged affiliation-seekers are the fans, or affines.)

<<<I don't like this notion, and I think the best antidote is

conscious rejection.>>>

I see, now, that that is what is going on. Lather feels much the same as you do, and he elucidated similar feelings for me. However, the process of the rejection seemed to me to throw the entirely normal baby out with the regrettable bath water. And also: sorry, dude, but... the antidote won't work!-- though a few voices in the wilderness expressing your and Lather's views are undoubtedly salutary to have in the meme-mix.

I think the discussion at this point would, if we were to continue it, turn to the subject of news management, the media in general, and ~Ratings~. But I don't have much heart for that depressing discussion, and suspect you don't either, at this point.



To: Dayuhan who wrote (47530)7/28/1999 3:33:00 PM
From: Father Terrence  Respond to of 108807
 
You shall always get praise from me when you see clearly...