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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Dayuhan who wrote (48512)	8/2/1999 8:12:00 PM
From: Father Terrence	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

The so-called Conservatives of today are mostly idiots. I applaud you on an excellent, EXCELLENT post!! Right on the mark!! Hurrah!!! FT

To: Dayuhan who wrote (48512)	8/3/1999 8:37:00 AM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Gee, Steve, I was (uncontroversially) taught that the United States acquired the Philippines as a colony as a consequence of the Spanish- American War; that civil liberties were treated cavalierly during the Red Scare following the First World War; that Japanese- Americans were interned during WWII; and many other not so flattering facts about the United States, all of this in the late '60s and early '70s in conventional junior and senior high schools, so I don't know what you are talking about. When I was in high school I took Asian Studies and African Studies, admittedly as electives, but they were offered. My son has studied Japan (unfortunately, in a way that was not age appropriate), and Kenya (again, too young), has taken a pretty comprehensive world history course, and has spent endless time on Native Americans, along with his American History, all before his sophomore year in high- school. They have spent rather more time on "cultures" and "processes" than great men, again, often in a way that was not age appropriate, and they have heard about segregation, the Trail of Tears, and other things that are black marks against the country. My son is not enrolled in a progressive school, but a pretty middle of the road public school district in Anne Arundel County, Maryland. Your remarks are way off the mark, in my experience...

To: Dayuhan who wrote (48512)	8/3/1999 11:06:00 AM
From: Edwarda	Respond to of 108807

But an effort to mediate it by trying to present a more balanced and comprehensive (and, ideally, more academically rigorous) account of history would not be a bad idea at all. Once again, you remind me that I obviously was very fortunate in my education. Thanks for the reminder.

To: Dayuhan who wrote (48512)	8/3/1999 12:05:00 PM
From: Michael M	Respond to of 108807

Hi Steven - I can't comment on Part I of your Philippine History Lecture Series, but after reading your brief remarks, must admit, as a parent, I might also have taken an interest in the content. That some parents were ignorant of some historical "facts" is no more appalling than the possibility that you chose to ride roughshod over some cherished U. S. cultural "facts". On a more universal level, I suspect parents in most cultures kind of cringe when their progeny return from school with a "new fact". When judging episodes in history, I believe it's more useful to see them in a context of what standards prevailed at the time (This is one reason why I find "comparisons" of Jefferson and Clinton rather meaningless). My first objection to your Philippine history (and I may be WAY off base) is that it might have sounded like the place wasn't already a colony of Spain for the previous 350 years or so (show me any former Spanish colony that isn't deeply screwed up, even now). The Philippine independence that existed between the decline of Spain's rule and transfer of the "deed" (sans title insurance) to the U.S. was tenuous at best (however longed-for or deserved). Plus, Armies of Liberation carry plenty of baggage of their own. Not to stretch a point too far but I have a hard time seeing the KLA as a legitimate government in Kosovo -- unless, of course, we want to concede that legitimacy comes from the end of a gun and the willingness to use it. There was a time when that was the prevailing standard but we've been struggling to move on for a couple of hundred years. Re. "Great Men", for all I know, George Washington didn't want to be a role model any more than Charles Barkley. It's almost inevitable that some people end up on pedestals. Show me cultures where this is not the case and I will show you places where not much has happened. Maybe tropical climates have a moderating effect on type-A personalities (not saying that's so -- feel free to chalk that one up as a smart-ass comment). BTW, the creation of larger-than-life heroes is hardly limited to conservatives. We don't have to look much further than the Father of the Peace Corps to debunk that idea. "Great men -- and, women", however grossly glossed over their images, can be the inspiration for many who would be great and often are. The other side of the coin is, "He's doing it - everybody's doing it - I might as well do it." Anyway, our colonization/occupation of the Philippines was brief by historical standards. It's harshest and bloodiest phase MAY have been fanned by a rather outrageous "massacre" of American troops by Philippine elements more interested in their own ascendancy than the overall welfare of the Philippine people. When you speak against the images of "great men" don't overlook some of the overly romanticized assholes in independence movements, including the Philippines. "Traditional" history, as taught in the U.S., may have been "Unbearably Eurocentric" to you and others but if I may grossly oversimplify for a moment; what the hell was going on in the Philippines up until about 1941 that had any effect on the world at large. Before you jump on that one, I might add that if our parents heard anything about the Philippines in school in the 20s and 30s, it likely was that the U.S. was trying to help establish democracy in the colony, leading to its independence. However flawed (and inconvenient for some Philippine leaders) that effort was, it was an honorable effort based on western ideals. Steven, in no way do I mean to insult your knowledge and understanding of Philippine history and culture (you are light years ahead of me). Nor do I overlook your obvious love for the Philippine people. But, frankly, in ex-pat parlance, you seem to have "gone native". As a result, if you are a realist, you must know that this has the effect of marginalizing your arguments before those who find value in traditional views. Peace.