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To: Bilow who wrote (28826)9/6/1999 11:17:00 PM
From: grok  Respond to of 93625
 
RE: <So take a look at the circuitry inside your cellular phone. Notice that it isn't all on one chip? Ever wonder why?>

How many guesses do we get? Do we get any clues?

My first guess is that the different chips operate at different frequencies and so they are made with different technologies.

If that's wrong then my next guess is that the chips are too noisy to merge together.

Why don't you tell me how I'm doing so far so I don't use up all my guesses.



To: Bilow who wrote (28826)9/6/1999 11:21:00 PM
From: grok  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 93625
 
RE: <At 800Mhz, eight inches of copper is a long, long, long wire.>

As I understand it, the traces go from the chip set to the first RIMM and then across the length of the first RIMM then over to the second RIMM and across it and then over to the 3rd RIMM and across it. That sounds like 8" or a little more.



To: Bilow who wrote (28826)9/6/1999 11:29:00 PM
From: Bilow  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 93625
 
Notes on SSTL_2, DDR, and why DDR data busses may be used as bidirectional transmission lines, also on why the motherboard makers hate rambus.

Micron website for DDR:
micron.com
From the 128MB data sheet:

(page 1) 2.5V SSTL_2 compatible I/O.
This means that the inputs and output voltage levels &c. are defined to the SSTL_2 standard.
(pdf) micron.com

Just looking at the SSTL levels is probably enough to convince any EE that the logic is suitable for transmission line driving. They even include voltage level standards that assume a little underdamping at the termination. But finding a link that would show this to the uneducated took some time. But I did find a lot of other interesting stuff, and will post it later. Anyway, the SSTL_2 standard is defined in EIA/JEDEC specifications. Here are the definitions of a bunch of low voltage interface standards, for future reference:
jedec.org

SSTL_2 stands for "Stub Series Terminated Logic, 2.5 volt.
If you'll take a look at page 19 (of 21-page pdf file, but labelled as page 13) of the following document, you will see a 50 ohm transmission line. Data is shown being passed from the left to the right. The text reads: Finally, the system designer may require a bus system which must be terminated at both sides. This is the description of a bidirectional bus. The drawing shows data only going one way, as such a bus only passes information in one direction at a time:
jedec.org
This should pretty much demonstrate to the casual engineer out there that SSTL_2 is designed for driving transmission lines.

The uneducated would, no doubt, not recognize a bidirectional transmission line logic family if it came up and had unwanted, unprotected sex with them. For this reason, I now visit the Rambus web site to get quotes from the rambus logic definitions...
rambus.com

The first thing you notice about the above site is that it is strongly biased in favor of the investor rather than the engineer. DOESN'T THAT MAKE ANY OF YOU A LITTLE WORRIED? Engineers have to click off to the Developer Site. But Company Relations, News, and Investor Relations is given a front row seat. Ah, here it is, the 128/144MB RDRAM specification, only 1MB, so you guys should down load a copy:
rambus.com

Unfortunately, I couldn't download the above, (maybe my link is too slow), but here is the "short channel design guide," which applies to PCB designers who use the simpler version of direct rambus channel (i.e. bus connections). This is great reading for those of you who still think that rambus technology is no bid deal for the motherboard house. Here are some great things to have to inform your PCB layout artist:

all RSI, data signals the SCK and CMD CMOS signals, and the differential clock pairs must have matched electrical lengths between the controller and any RDRAM on the Channel Hmmm...

Rambus recommends against critical signals making right-angle turns, but having many 45 degree turns will be unavoidable. The length of each 45 degree turn should be a minimum of 2mm to avoid a local impedance depression. I can't help it, I'm laughing so hard I can barely type!

The loading effects of the RDRAM package and I/O circuit would tend to lower the impedance of the Channel at the points where the RDRAMs are connected. To offset this effect, the width of the trace near the RDRAM load is reduced. (Snicker, snicker. So much for the guy who complained about mixing memory makers. With any particular rambus channel, you are going to have to have all the slots occupied. No big deal to the user, but it means that if you want to sell two different memory sized DIMMs by having some positions unfilled, you are out of luck. Instead, you will have to design another PCB for the lightly filled DIMM. This adds costs to the DIMM maker, as he has to design and stock more kinds of PCBs.)

In many places, vias will drill through the ground and power planes, resulting in holes the planes. If these holes are close to each other and of sufficient size, they will overlap and effectively crate a slot in the plane. This is of particular concern near the small-pitch RDRAM footprints. Planes to which RSL signals are referenced must have no slots that impede the return current. Oh boy!

matched propagation delays from the controller die pads to the first RDRAM in order to minimize the skew between these signals at the input pins of the devices on the Channel. Matching the trace lengths on the motherboard is not sufficient to minimize the skew between signals. The motherboard designer must also account for other factors that cause skew between the signals... The controller package, the controller pin escape routing, and vias. Additionally, since the propagation delay of a signal depends on its mode of propagation (odd or even), clocks that are routed differentially will propagate faster than the data signals. I'm sure a lot of this seems quite simple to you guys, but this is not going to be a painless experience for the box makers. As for making these Channels longer than around 8 inches, in your dreams. It really stuns me that people are considering going through these kinds of hoops just for the disadvantage of paying an extra 35% for their memory. Anyway, on page 9 of 29, marked as page 4, you will find the drawing that shows the transmission lines for the rambus clocks. Just like the transmissions lines in the above SSTL_2 article. Link to (hilarious) rambus PCB design guide:
rambus.com

One of the worst problems in managing problems in complicated digital design is apportioning blame when things don't work. This is not so much for financial considerations, but for determining who made a mistake, and, therefore, who needs to alter their work. The effect of these incredibly complicated PCB instructions is that when a box maker has a design that is failing to work on 5% of the manufactured computers, they will have a very hard time proving whether it was the memory maker (i.e. Micron), the controller maker(i.e. Intel), or the board maker (i.e. themselves) who failed.

-- Carl



To: Bilow who wrote (28826)9/7/1999 5:34:00 AM
From: John Walliker  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 93625
 
Bilow,

DDR DRAM uses SSTL-2, not TTL switching levels. If you read the IEEE specification on it, you will find that it allows double terminations to the characteristic line impedance. In other words, there is no "brick wall" associated with DDR and multiple bits on a line. (I am having to suppress a cyber smile here, when I think about the concept of putting multiple bits on the same wire simultaneously. I think that if you do a little more research, you will find that nobody is making data lines on rambus long enough to suffer that particular feat. At 800Mhz, eight inches of copper is a long, long, long wire.)


I have done my research. On the Rambus web site. There is a detailed description there of how multiple bits can be active on the same wire at the same time.


You should also note that, identical to rambus, DDR sends a clock with the data. Rambus has no patent protection on this idea, it is ancient.


Rambus has two clocks, one for each direction of data travel. DDR does not. Without this there cannot be multiple bits on the bus at once, as there would be no way of knowing which bit was being latched.


By the way, even with controlled impedance pins, putting more than two IC chips on the same wire is going to generate stubs. Engineers know this, and arrange for input signal rise and fall times to be slow enough to hide the stub reflections. This is why digital frequencies are so slow compared to what is theoretically possible.


Yes, that is why there are special packaging requirements for Rambus to minimise the stub.


Amateur theoreticians just don't understand the actual limitations present in this technology


Very true, but nor do they understand the great advantages that it will bring in the future.


As an aside, you should ask around and find out more about how printed circuit boards are designed. In particular, the design time for controlled impedance boards is longer than that of regular boards, leading to delays in getting to market, as well as delays in fixing broken designs.


Why? I have designed many printed circuit boards myself and have regular contact with manufacturers. High speed designs are much more likely to get broken if they are not designed using controlled impedance boards. After all, if the impedance is not specified, you don't know what you will get back from the manufacturers each time. As for the design time being longer, modern PCB design software has facilities for matching trace lengths and it is not difficult to determine the correct trace width to use in conjunction with a particular board lamination thickness and dielectric constant.


One of the amazing things about digital design right now, is the explosion in new logic definitions (i.e. LVTTL3, LVTTL2, CMOS2, CMOS3, SSTL-2, SSTL-3, HTL, etc.)


Yes, I have the i/o curves for most of those in front of me now. They all differ from the Rambus interface in one important aspect. Rambus drives the bus with constant current sources which do not cause a significant reflection when they are switched on.

Tighter manufacturing tolerances increase the costs of the motherboard. What we are talking about here is controlled impedance inner layers, transmission line routing, etc. All this increases the cost of the motherboard on a per square inch basis. Thus rambus adds cost loading to more than just the rambus wires.


Yes.


As far as the suggestions that digital engineers should be able to do it cause the communications guys do it at multi GHz, try to get real. Do you guys think that we are stupid?


Why not? How are computers going to get much faster than they are at present without using RF techniques much more. After all, it can be done and mass produced in the comms market.

So take a look at the circuitry inside your cellular phone. Notice that it isn't all on one chip? Ever wonder why? Do some research. If you can't tell me why it takes multiple chips to make a cellular phone with current technology, you have no business questioning my understanding of the limits of current technology, or suggesting that technology from some other field can be easily borrowed.

I have looked inside several cellular phones. Yes, I do know why there are several chips and why the number reduces every year. I am sure you do to. I also know that manufacturers are working towards integrating everything onto one chip, but they have not reached this point yet.

Maybe I'll post some links on the difficulties associated with high frequencies and DRAM processes, not to mention LOGIC later on. (Hint, hint.)


Please do - I am sure it will be of interest.


I get a little hot under the collar some times, particularly when people imply that I could be doing my job better...


I don't recall anyone suggesting that

John