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Strategies & Market Trends : DAYTRADING Fundamentals -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Matthew L. Jones who wrote (3764)	9/11/1999 9:56:00 AM
From: KM	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 18137

Matt, I'm in total agreement with everything you've said. Total. I do not support the activities of these "hot rooms" as you have called them, and frankly, I cannot imagine doing 100 trades a day for eighths and sixteenths, although I know that there are people who do that consistently and well. You say to think independently. Again, no argument here. That's why I get so cranky about these SI "gurus" and their zombielike followings. I'm certain that the goal of these "gurus" is to amass a reliable base of people who will pay them for access to their "private sites". Of course, the motivation of most of these subscribers is to make money without having to do any work or due diligence on their own. We've all heard the tale of the one who allegedly pulls in $80k per month from subscribers to a site and I'm sure that has not gone unnoticed by those who talk big and probably trade little. I'm on record umpteen times as being suspicious at best of these onsite daytrading firms. If they are advising people who know nothing of TA, tape reading, etc. and have no market experience to take positions, sell if they tick one eighth against them, and reposition, repeating this over and over, it would seem apparent that their motives are to generate commissions and nothing more. Further, I find the atmosphere of these places as I have observed it, to be at the very least annoying and probably counterproductive to concentration and independent thinking. So, no argument here. I just post stuff of general interest as I find it.

To: Matthew L. Jones who wrote (3764)	9/11/1999 11:15:00 AM
From: Mark Davis	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 18137

Matt, I applaud you. I am ON RECORD here at SI years (2 1/2 at least) ago pointing out these very problems with the daytrading industry. Fortunatly, I am a born skeptic, so I figured out the 'hustle' in about 5 minutes. I would also warn newbies about self-churning when I traded in a room. The owners loved that. That said, a skilled daytrader can and does make very good money in this market. It's not clear what percentage of active daytraders can truly be called skilled, but it can't be very high. One problem is that much of daytrading in NON-intuitive, and must be learned through experience. Takes time and a good head for it. I saw the trade for teenies scam being run at the now defunct BLOCK Trading, and it was clearly a scheme to make the house lots of money, and the traders very little if any. Also, why didn't BARRON's name names??? If the firms are guilty as charged, why not protect the public with full disclosure. Legal dept. no doubt. I have railed against the high commission structure for some time. Do you mean to tell me, that with all the computerization and falling prices we still have to pay an avg of $40 a round trip???? That's a lot of money to pay for an electronic book entry somewhere, and come right out of our pocket, into someone elses. We need more price competition, now. PS I like your portrayal of Houtkin as a Cook-like figure. Did you catch the shameless self promotion when he was interviewed after the shooting? Slime.

To: Matthew L. Jones who wrote (3764)	9/11/1999 11:25:00 AM
From: Dave O.	Respond to of 18137

< As long as there are people like big Harvey Houtkin out there doing the Wade Cook approach to Daytrading > Matt, I traded al All Tech for a while and there was absolutely no pressure to trade excessively. Perhaps I was in a "good" office. I'd make anywhere from 1 to a max of 15 trades in a day and I tended to be in the 2-4 trades per day. I'm not sure Houtkin should have a finger pointed at him. Those that I saw walk into All Tech were asked about their knowledge of the markets and if they were "rookies" then it was suggested that they take training and definitely paper trade for a while. And last of all, anyone who walks into a daytrading office with $$$ to trade with should not be using money they can't afford to lose. And one doesn't know if he/she can succeed without trying. I'd wager that there are quite a few successful traders who knew little when they entered the profession ... people who came from all walks of life. Hope you don't see my post as "attacking' ... not intended that way. Nor am I a "fan" of Houtkin's ... I trade my own style and am not one to scalp a teeny here and there. Dave

To: Matthew L. Jones who wrote (3764)	9/11/1999 3:46:00 PM
From: Dan Clark	Respond to of 18137

Matt, I think many people will agree with you about cracking down on the "hot rooms". I for one have NO interest in that environment. But... In virtually all of these media articles in the last year or so, the message is NOT that the day trading rooms are bad. NOT that traders are victims of hype and manipulation. No, the message is DAYTRADING and DAYTRADERS are bad! Notice in this article that the article starts out with the travails of David Reiter - how much he lost, how unsuccessful he was in trading, how unsuccessful he was personally in business, etc. All the gory details of SPECIFICALLY how much of a loser he was. Then the articles graphically describe how difficult it is to daytrade and how few people make it. E.g., "I never met any day-trader I considered consistently successful." Also, how bad the odds of making money are and how much the commissions are. Nowhere does it discuss the massive differences in the multiple styles of trading. Then it discusses John Skiersch and how much his life was destroyed by the evils of daytrading. E.g., "I lost my home, I lost my girlfriend, I lost my family members, and my health has declined dramatically,...". Then it discusses how awesome this fellow was personally, "With a long ponytail, a guitar sometimes cradled in his arms and often attired in bright sequined cowboy outfits, the Chicagoan is a professional entertainer, whose stage persona is Johnny Vegas, the Disco King." (What a guy!) It is only at the bottom that they go into the problems with hot rooms. The underlying message in the article is that "daytrading is bad", NOT that "daytrading firms should be cleaned up". That's the problem! IMO, of course. Good trading and regards, Dan.

To: Matthew L. Jones who wrote (3764)	9/13/1999 4:35:00 PM
From: Robert O	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 18137

OT You wrote: Jesus once said, "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap". Where is that line from Jesus in the Bible? Much that I can find is the contrary: Micah 6:15 Thou shalt sow, but thou shalt not reap; thou shalt tread the olives, but thou shalt not anoint thee with oil; and sweet wine, but shalt not drink wine. And from the Synoptic Gospels: Matthew 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Luke 12:24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? RO ps I'm no Bible scholar, just able to search a concordance like the next guy (gal) bible.gospelcom.net