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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: epicure who wrote (56463)9/29/1999 9:16:00 PM
From: Dayuhan  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
I've long thought that the only way to break the inner city cycle would be to set up boarding schools well outside the city. Spartan, strict discipline, academically as rigorous as the students can manage. Initially for elementary level students only, too much discipline trouble with the older ones. High schools would be only for graduates of the elementary program that have met the requirements. Open to all, but anyone who doesn't meet academic and discipline rules goes right back to the ghetto.

It should be free. In the long run it will be cheaper to educate them than to pay their doles and keep them in prison.

It wouldn't save everybody, but I think on balance it would be cost-effective.



To: epicure who wrote (56463)9/30/1999 12:44:00 AM
From: Michael M  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
X -- Thank you. I take issue with some of what you say but I compliment you sincerely for responding in an honest and specific way.

Taking your response from the top, I don't think I've yet said anything to you about simple answers (I may before this is done, though).

1. To debate this, we would first need some definitions of drug offenses. As I noted a few moments ago to FT, I don't care too much what individuals do if it has no negative impact on the rest of us. If I may begin with an extreme -- if you as an adult, encounter some purely personal problems with drug use, as far as I'm concerned, you can rehab your own damn self at your own expense.

Given your expressed views on the harm done by polluters, I wonder if drugs and requisite equipment ought to come, in some way, under the purview of government regulation in the way that food and drugs and medical devices are. Who will pay for this?

In what way, if any, will we regulate and enforce the use of drugs by minors, by adults who provide to minors, by teachers, coaches, public officials, doctors, nurses, airline pilots, basketball players, judges, juries, ad infinitum?

If I may be so bold, I think it is YOU who are way oversimplifying the decriminalization of drug offenses.

2. I am always astonished when prostitution is called a victimless crime. If you want, let's debate this one as a separate subject later -- I would be interested in what others say. I don't want to presume any knowledge on your part but most whores in the world don't have a very glamorous life. I'm not going to start in on this one now.

3. Your #3 is unbelievable to me. Your views re. # 1 and #2 having a positive effect are wild. No offense if you want to call me stupid. I don't get it. Not only is there no simple solution to the underlying problem here, I'm not sure there is ANY solution. Mo' money, IMO, will do nothing. At some point here, I'm willing to talk child abuse charges, sterilization as a condition of additional benefits and ORPHANAGES (many of these children are without parents in any meaningful sense of the word).

4. The U.S. should stand behind the integrity of sovereign nations, as they exist now? How convenient for the U.S. to declare the end of history. You sound a little like Pat Buchanan as you go on. I'm surprised.

Although there are many different ways to look at the issue, there is a strong case to be made for the U.S. having NO actual foreign aid program at this time (except for giving a lot of money to Israel and Egypt).

5. Lots more money for education? NO NO NO!!! I forget if you mentioned where you live (DC?). I'd like you, or anyone, to look over the DC school stats maintained by the Post and tell me money does the job. Choices? Forget it. Teach the little terrors to read and write and add and find Cleveland and Tokyo on a map (sorry, Joan, Chechnya strictly for gifted classes).

Channel energy? There's gym class and there's a strange looking thing in black and white (a woman I'm told) with a lethal weapon called a ruler. It works. Kids can learn to sit still and pay attention. Until that happens, nothing happens.

6. Job Corps. I'm willing to listen to ideas. As you might guess, I have a few of my own. First, let me say that any program will produce anecdotal evidence of success.

"Boot camp" type programs have received tremendous attention. I am VERY personally familiar with some of them. Most don't work worth beans -- unless you're running some kind of model program and willing to assign a whole team of people to "support" individual miscreants in every imaginable way. Costs generally go way up (I had a cousin who established and ran a program for whole state) after you get started and off-buget fiscal support required is sometimes out of sight.

Aside from summer employment and perhaps about 10 hours a week during the school year, I am against school age kids working. Their "job" is to get smart. I realize a segment of the economy might go in the dumper (kid consumerism) but maybe it ought to anyway.

Along these lines, every local paper ought to devote an equal amount of ink to academics as to school sports. Kids are embarrassed as hell when their football team gets run off the field. Not that hard to develop similar awareness and pride in academic achievement. FWIW, in 8th grade, there were 44 kids in my class (and NO screwing around) -- once a month the Black & White at the front of the room put the best student front left, second left, etc. Except for one true retard that they left in about spot #30, everyone moved, every month. Very serious motivation.

7. Agree. Kinda. I think corporations would love to do more actually but are held back by amazing amounts or regulation, etc. Every time a corporation gets involved in anything they incur incredible responsibility and liability.
What you are suggesting (maybe?) sounds something like let churches and charities do more. Problem is, governments want to mandate the programs, take the money and tell the "privates" how to play ball. B.S.

8. When you find a guaranteed job requiring minimal skill that pays 20K over the poverty level, fax me immediately! I can make time. In the county where I live, the unemployment rate is less than 1 percent. Lots of illegals, lots of traditionally disadvantaged folks. Lots of entry level employment. Lots of movin' on up. If you can't make a decent buck in Beaufort County, SC, you just can't be bothered. Some people are that way. Re. "blue collar workers," we need the ones we need -- there's a "rap" in this country (mostly from *** *** union stiffs) about the nobility of the "working class," that reeks of "hero of the Soviet Union." Every time I need some blue collar help, the guy seems to want about $60 and hour. More power to him if he can get it -- **** him if he wants it through the back door (govt. assistance).

9. I mostly agree with you on this one. Couple big problems though. Get the fairy tale people out of the EPA for starters. Re-do the laws so every little teensie group with an ax to grind can't bring the world to a halt with the help of an environmental law. I have no shortage of personal/professional horror stories on this one.

Re. clean-up. In many cases, this is plain stupid. I've seen mandates for spending billions of dollars for clean up when it would have been just as easy to relocate dozens (or hundreds) of dirt-bag level homes in undesirable industrial areas, to nicer surroundings. The SuperFund is a major SuperScam. I've been away from this area for a few years - forgive me if rules have changed.

10. I can't really comment. I recently moved from California. In that state if you wanted to learn something -- anything, the community college system would do everything for you but your homework. You may be able to kick my *** on a few of these but don't mess with me on this one. No prisoners.

11. I'm on your side. Way. That said, some people will always have "better" health care than others. Right now, you can pay through the nose or be on public assistance - or better yet - in prison. I have numerous friends and relatives of the medical persuasion and no shortage of "amusing" tales.

We need reform badly. I have some ideas if you ever want to discuss.

12. AMEN! PRAISE JESUS!

13. Yeah. Sort of. Maybe. I think I might approach the problem from a different angle. Later. Tell me what you propose.

14. Yeah, but. Encourage. Incentives. ??? Along with #8, I have to say I hate tax incentives. I just ******* hate them. Root of all evil in our legislative process.
Make the money -- pay the tax. Period. Plenty of other ways to encourage beneficial behavior without corrupting the tax code. No intent to suggest it is not completely corrupted as it exists now.

Hope your kids didn't starve and evidence of whatever has been removed from all laundry.

Becoming more difficult to type. Spectacular thunder bumper going by -- 90 lb Lab sort of in my lap.

Hoping nothing too offensive above. Thank you again for throwing some real meat in the soup.

Mike



To: epicure who wrote (56463)9/30/1999 12:30:00 PM
From: The Philosopher  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
Will you please stop doing that?

I came back to Feelies after some time away and the first thing I read is a long post from you which makes absolute, perfect sense and which I am unable to disagree with in any way.

X, you and I are supposed to be vigorous opponents, to battle at all points, to trade insults and barbs for the entertainment (and occasional edification) of the thread. How can we do that if you write stuff that I can't argue with, but would have to applaud if that weren't in absolute violation of our established relationship?

Please stop posting such good sense and go back to posting stuff I can have fun attacking you for.

Thanks,

chris



To: epicure who wrote (56463)9/30/1999 5:05:00 PM
From: Sidney Reilly  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 108807
 
#2decriminalize prostitution. I hate the criminalization of victimless crimes

Victimless crimes? I suppose you think women choose to be prostitutes because they are emotionally well adjusted and researched it thoroughly and made an informed career choice! Most prostitutes have been the victim all their lives and are too emotionally damaged to make any good choices.