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To: jbe who wrote (15011)	10/21/1999 12:22:00 PM
From: goldsnow	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 17770

I presume that the standard Russian argument today would be that it is pointless to argue the rights & the wrongs of the conquest of the North Caucasus, just as it would be pointless to argue the rights and the wrongs of the American expropriation of Indian lands. In short, their position would probably be that it's now "ours," and we aren't going to give it back. >>>> That is not a pointless argument, Russians constitute 75% of Kazachstan...yet it gained independance.....there are very few Russians in North Caucauses....so the argument is not as valid as american Indians example... ps. Ivan Kalita was in charge of "oprichnics" (prototype of security/KGB <gg> created by Ivan Grozny (Ivan the Terrible )(Grozny=Terrible) in Russian, capital of Chechnya

To: jbe who wrote (15011)	10/21/1999 2:12:00 PM
From: goldsnow	Respond to of 17770

sorry JBE, Kalita was "good" Moscow czar, 200 years befre Ivan Grozny....more to follow

To: jbe who wrote (15011)	10/21/1999 2:18:00 PM
From: Yaacov	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 17770

jbe, Thank you for your post. Your correct, It was Ivan Grozny and not Ivan Kalita. Sorry for the mistake and thanks for correcting me. All the same, after he married his so called Kabardian Princes, who was not really Kabardian, but came from the Grebenski Kossacks settled on Terek, he asked the Kossacks to build a fortress on the Sea of Azov, and hold it in his name! This is the base of Russian claim on the region! Grebenski's, or the Kossacks of the Line, crossed the Terek at will and carried off Kabardian and Chechnian women whom they married, and thus they mixed with the Chechens and Kabardians. I doubt if this Maria Timryukovna was a full blooded Kabardian PRinces! Any idea?