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To: Zardoz who wrote (44333)	10/30/1999 12:30:00 AM
From: d:oug	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 116756

Hutch, I do not have to know the mechanics of how a company engages in bad or unmoral conduct to understand=know that they are doing as such. I don't have to know the biology & chemistry of how one of my farts are made to understand that being clueless about the process does not translate into not being aware and troubled by it. d mentioned agenda, that might Butler only being doing this Barrick attack simply to get himself a name thru this "cheap shot", with the end result being his pay per view newsletter he just launched. d's agenda = hold ABX shares Hutch's agenda = the stuff you understand here, its your profession If GATA gets done their agenda, then deriverates and the like will still be available, but with lots of law and restrictions so that "complex" to the point of being "secret" will not be possible. Currently the real mean and complicated areas of derivates are unknowable to those outside not doing it. So, until then when GATA closes down this "shop" the misuse and slime and ripoffs and illegal methods obtained under the cover of derivates will continue. But then I'am clueless and have no idea what I'am talking about. Those who get toasted thru there use can tell that to the Judge. Days are numbered, later get an honest job. Anyway, the politicians will need a scapegoat to carry all the blame, and what better than derivates, that which noone understands except the criminals and bad people using them. doug

To: Zardoz who wrote (44333)	10/30/1999 5:46:00 AM
From: long-gone	Respond to of 116756

Let's see, & members of the Fed only want us to use plastic: Friday October 22 1:47 PM ET Russian Gang Clearing Out ATMs <http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/p/ap/19991022/wl/russia_atm_fraud.html> AP Photo <http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/p/ap/19991022/wl/russia_atm_fraud.html> By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV Associated Press Writer MOSCOW (AP) - A sophisticated Russian criminal ring has been clearing out bank accounts in several countries - including the United States - by tampering with ATM machines in Moscow in a scam that has mainly targeted foreigners. The full extent of the fraud is not yet known, but authorities believe hundreds of thousands of dollars have been stolen by a well-organized criminal group that may have insider connections at Russian banks. The thieves manipulated ATMs in Moscow and other cities to get the PIN codes, and then made false cards which were used to withdraw money at automatic teller machines in Western Europe, Israel, Russia and the United States. One victim, American George Sullivan, a production manager at the Troika Dialog investment bank in Moscow, said he lost $2,300 through his MBNA Bank Visa card. ``Withdrawals took place in Tel Aviv in the beginning of May,' said Sullivan, noting that the criminals hit his limit on the card before it was frozen.(cont) dailynews.yahoo.com

To: Zardoz who wrote (44333)	10/30/1999 6:18:00 AM
From: d:oug	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 116756

bad, very bad, bad bad bad Reuters Finance News U.S. Won't Seek Regulation Of Derivatives By Andrew Clark Oct 30 12:39am ET WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In a long-awaited report set for release next week, U.S. regulators will conclude that the multi-trillion dollar market in privately-arranged financial derivatives does not need government regulation, people familiar with the report said. The regulators will tell Congress that so-called over-the-counter, or OTC, financial derivatives should not be subject to U.S. futures laws, they said. Derivatives are investments whose values are linked to underlying factors such as interest or exchange rates. Market participants have worried for years that U.S. futures regulators might try to assert jurisdiction over the currently-unregulated OTC market, which could have thrown the legal enforceability of widely-used derivatives contracts like swaps into question. A working group of U.S. regulators, including the Federal Reserve, Treasury, Securities and Exchange Commission and Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC), has been studying the issue for over a year. Congress will use their findings in a rewrite of U.S. futures laws due to be completed next year. The regulators decided that the sophisticated, usually institutional, investors who use financial derivatives to manage risk do not need the same sort of protections as small investors in exchange-traded futures markets, the people familiar with the report said. The CFTC, which regulates U.S. futures trading, last year caused a furor when it issued a study that suggested it could claim authority over the OTC market. The study was bitterly opposed by other U.S. financial regulators. Under its new chairman, William Rainer, the agency has reversed course, apparently allowing the working group to reach a consensus. ``The national interest in fostering economic efficiency in the OTC derivatives market can only be accomplished by establishing clear legal certainty for the over-the-counter market,' Rainer said in a speech Thursday, adding that U.S. futures laws were ``not designed to regulate the OTC market.' The working group does recommend that commodity derivatives remain subject to futures laws and the CFTC's jurisdiction, the people familiar with the report said. The group also focused on the use of centralized clearing houses for financial derivatives as a way of mitigating the economic risks associated with the OTC market, they said, leaving open the question of their future regulation. Traditional U.S. futures exchanges have long complained that the OTC market has been eating into their business, and the group will back a CFTC initiative to deregulate financial futures trading to allow them to compete on a more level playing field, the people familiar with the report said. ``The CFTC's regulatory policy must ensure that there is a balance between the regulatory environment for OTC derivatives and the level of regulation applied to the financial futures markets,' Rainer said Thursday. ``These markets are simply too important to the nation's economy to ignore the potential damage from disparate regulatory structures.' Congressional aides said Friday they expected the report to be completed next week.

To: Zardoz who wrote (44333)	10/30/1999 8:39:00 AM
From: Mark Bartlett	Respond to of 116756

Hutch, <<as long as the POG stays within ranges>> What are the ranges? - you seem to feel you have a grip on their hedging - so please elucidate for our benefit. As far as Butler and fraud are concerned - I would have to know what he means by fraud, within the context of Barrick. Perhaps he means that should gold run, their hedging program will seriously hamper their capacity to benefit from it. Perhaps he means that it is in their best interest for gold to stay within a range (as you seem to support). If they denied this was the case, that could be interpreted as fraud. << Maybe if he sat down with a futures and a derivative trader, he'd begin to understand that many of these instruments are in the best interest of ABX>> That's part of the problem - if I phone Barrick and ask to make an appointment, so that I can have their derivative program explained to me - I doubt they would comply. Second, I doubt without a considerable amount of learning, I would understand it anyway. People tend to shy away from things they do not understand - and in any event, with LTCM fresh in many minds, we have recent evidence of how esoteric derivative schemes can fly apart. I suspect, to all but the most erudite derivative traders, Barrick's position is nothing more than a black box. The only black boxes I will invest in, are those where I can get honest third party confirmation, they truly work - where can I get that with Barrick? MB