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Pastimes : Jesus -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Berry Picker who wrote (1624)	11/3/1999 9:34:00 AM
From: average joe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 4775

Brian those are not your articles they are John's articles. aj

To: Berry Picker who wrote (1624)	11/3/1999 11:11:00 AM
From: maouse	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 4775

Brian, On the most quoted and misunderstood verse(s)... I entirely concur that Jesus is the way. All we have to do is choose to follow.... but I digress. would you like my take on the truth of the scripture being "quoted"? well here it is anyway... John & commentary: 1:Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. -pretty clear who he was. 2:He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." -in the dark would be a better interpretation of how night is used, as this is what the passage eludes to... Nic is not important; the image that he was supposed to be knowledgable and was still in the dark is what this is about(and why it made it into the Bible)... read on. 3:In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. [1]" -earthly... read on. 4:"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" -Nic asks how this can be done on earth? 5:Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. -One needs to be BAPTISED in the Spirit. On EARTH. 6:Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit [2] gives birth to spirit. -ON EARTH. 7:You should not be surprised at my saying, `You [3] must be born again.' -because it was common to be baptised even then, and it was also prophesized that Jesus would be baptised in order to show the way. 8:The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." -or, unless you are baptised in spirit you will not know why you need to be on EARTH. You will see people doing what the Spirit wills and not know why they do it. 9:"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. -how can it be that I must be baptised to be saved? I am a Jew following the covenant of God! 10:"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? -you know that it is said that you must be baptised in the spirit once I HAVE COME, as it says so in your own scriptures(!!). 11:I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. -I know Judiac customs just as you do. I know God. I have done miracles to prove I am walking with God (in accordance with SCRIPTURE). Yet you still do not believe that I walk the EARTH! 12:I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? -To this point HE HAS NOT MENTIONED ONE THING WHICH RELATES TO GOD IN HEAVEN. He has told Nic what he must do on EARTH in order to be saved. THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT FACT! 13:No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. -No one on EARTH has ever gone to heaven (as is taught in OT) except and until the Son of Man does... read on. 14:Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, -ON EARTH. For Heavenly purposes, you must believe this new covenant. 15:that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. [5] -IN ORDER THAT YOU MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, which I would mention is the same promised gift of the first covenant. 16:"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. -Whoever Chooses to Believe ON EARTH. 17:For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. -Still talking about the EARTH here... Despite your rather interpretive and complicated explanation of this scripture and how it has been "misinterpreted" I see: 1. Jesus states he is talking about earthly means of salvation. 2. Jesus is talking about baptism. 3. Jesus is not refering esoterically to his nuetered Father who is all around us. 4. God, the Father, has sent his son to save the world... as many EARTHLY beings as would choose to believe. -why would you interpret 17 to say: "For God did not send his Son into the chosen to condemn the chosen, but to save the chosen through him." -as you have done. If they are the Chosen they don't need saving now do they? He did not send Jesus to save the chosen, but to save those who would not chose Him. As a testament of His love. And to hell with any that still don't choose to believe after that! 21:But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." -which you state means "is drawn into the light(as by bucket)"... which is fine. BUT WHAT ABOUT WHOEVER LIVES BY THE TRUTH? they are not in the light(chosen)... they are drawn into, as in actively saved(chosen) by the way they live. AND the endall of this was to go out and start baptising people... hmmmm does this passage talk about baptism as the way to faith, or does it talk about people already being saved and what the heck I'll waste my time and baptise them for the fun of it. He further clarifies the difference between a Christian baptism and a Jewish/other baptism. Then it ends with a reitterative warning against people who are just copiing falsly from verse 8: 36:Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." I think it is clear. (and not as complicated as you would have it) -maouse