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Pastimes : Jesus -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Berry Picker who wrote (1638)	11/4/1999 1:51:00 AM
From: Brumar89	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 4775

Brian, may I ask you a couple of questions? First, if you believe in absolute predestination and regard free will as an illusion, why do you bother to argue with anyone? You can't possibly convince anyone as their beliefs are fore-ordained by God. And no one who reads your arguments can possibly change their mind. Indeed, if everything including our beliefs are fore-ordained by God and unchangeable by anyone other than God, your arguing with people about their God-ordained beliefs could be a sign of a rebellious spirit which doesn't want to accept God's will. Which leads me to my next question - what makes you think you are one of the elect? If you aren't, you can believe you are as much as you want, but that won't make it so. Logically, how can one explain your trying to argue with people who you apparently believe are not free to believe other than the way they do? I suspect that your arguments are primarily designed to convince yourself. You are trying to believe certain things in order to align yourself with what you believe the Bible says. But your arguing as if people have free will, gives away what is really in your heart.

To: Berry Picker who wrote (1638)	11/4/1999 4:09:00 PM
From: maouse	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 4775

Brian ol' buddy, So what you are saying is that only those that believe believe because they are chosen. But even in that; how could the devil lead astray one who has been chosen? (my answer is of course free will)... your answer must be something like; because they must not have been chosen. Well, at least I'm starting to see where your coming from (even if I think its bass ackwards). as far as the word "because" is concerned; what do you interpret the word "and" to mean... is that not a conditional verb? meaning that UNLESS a AND b are done that c will not happen. Given that we must hear His word AND believe we will be saved. To you that means those that (hear and believe) are saved, like it is one in the same; If you hear you believe... but, I say to you that belief is a choice. I chose to believe what I will. I can hear all I want but unless I choose to believe I will not be saved. It is not the reversed mixed "those who hear/believe will be saved" you would have it be. My point on Faith was that the WORD FAITH does not appear in Genesis, not that it is not referenced later on after people concluded that it must have taken a lot of it to do something. Did you notice that in your qouting HEBREWS you did not mention anyone BEFORE/ADAM. I wonder why this is? Perhaps because I had a valid point when I stated that Adam and his "predicessors" (however long they lived to populate the ENTIRE earth really has no baering on the fact that they EXISTED without Faith) had no FAITH. They(man's base) simply did GOOD and were Very Good. BUT: I do not disagree that FAITH is the way to salvation for Adam's descendants. Nor do I disagree with the fact that Faith is a gift. In fact I was supporting these statements when I PROVED that man ORIGNALLY LACKED this gift. I would note; MAN is capable of GOOD because as PROVED it is part of how God made him. By doing GOOD works will God forgive sins and especially remove the curse laid upon Adam/Man? (as a Catholic Christian (especially given the recent accord) I believe that By Faith I will be compelled/choose to be/do Good as God intended in my nature) "He who HEARS means with spiritual ears not just the sound of the words.." - I forget, was this on EARTH? Then you must be talking about hearts/souls and not minds hearing... I think... RE>>Why did God create man?<< -I already told you... -maouse ps. who's truth... yes I will meditate on that scripture if you think it will help you understand me.