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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: mark silvers who wrote (28316)	12/4/1999 3:15:00 PM
From: Berry Picker	Respond to of 39621

RE>>Your opinion flys in the face of rational thought, christian or otherwise!<< Not so ! When a man is first Born-Again he does not know every last thing there is to know about God in a moment nor does any man know everything in a moment about any study. Yet you are pressing that upon the question and accusing me of being irrational. Again: Not so! 2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Lets us realize that there are in your original cross section those who will never know truth and merely cloud the issue... Jesus ensured that would be the case: 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. These men are ordained to this condemnation... they are accursed and workers of confusion who shroud the truth even from the elect but the elect continue and are promised to be overcomers of these false teachers ( grow out of ) How is that a contradiction.. you brought them into the question. I didn't. I assured you that I am one of those who is ordained to know the truth and indeed to present the truth of God in a world of lies and confusion. I am not to be judged by these men nor is God or the Bible to be judged by these liars and damned individuals who are in the visible churches. I am of the invisible church first. 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, ( B.V. - in the churches. ) RE>>How do you know that your beliefs are not one of the ones that need to be grown out of?<< I am still growing in the faith and knowledge of Jesus Christ as it is written: 2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. It is an ongoing process and because of the very nature of the topic it is a school that is infinite and we can study as we will but not reach an end of learning. The scriptures are more than mere words they are spirit and they have the depth and complexity of their Author - The Holy Ghost Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. The entire Bible is about Jesus Christ and indeed His voice is heard very loud and very clear within the Psalms... poor Sam thinks he can know Christ outside the ordained means... you argue that men cannot know him within the ordained means.. which of you is the saddest case ? MAN can know Christ by the Spirit and the Word They are both the ordained elements or means of understanding and knowing God with rare exception. ( Helen Keller knew the Lord before being able to communicate -she is deaf dumb and blind ) RE>>How do you know that your beliefs are not one of the ones that need to be grown out of?<< I have believed a lot of the common errors of people concerning who God is and how He works and am subject to the temptations and reasonings of the flesh just as anyone else. When I first got saved I relied ( foolish ) on others for my understanding just as a child depends on parents for truth. As I have grown and studied God's word I have progressed beyond the common heresies of men and by God's grace have learned the truth. Once you understand an error and why it is indeed error you do not doubt or wonder if you are wrong or need to go back to believing an inferior level of misunderstanding. You are a man caught in the flesh you are outside the realm of understanding because you depend upon your sense of Logic to assert HOW GOD MUST BE ! Most people who profess to be Christian suffer the same idolatrous mentality. They will spend all day explaining away what the Bible teaches very plainly to try and suit it to the flesh and get carnal men to join the church. They get converts though means other than the Holy Ghost. These are futile and useless efforts indeed it is the very spirit of error: 1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. There is nothing illogical about the things I say yet the carnal mind cannot see it as reasonable 1 I would say that what men consider "reasonable" does not always constitute what is "logical" or "actual". It is very logical to believe that the God of this universe could become flesh and blood and enter into our world and heal blind people or raise dead people by just a word, that IS LOGICAL it is not reasonable to a mind that is spiritually dead and locked into a world that disallows the concept of a god or miracles at all. To them it is unreasonable. RE>>". If the bible was clear to even just the faithfull and the believers, you wouldn't have earnest christians in denominations that need to be grown out of. << Concerning "Clear" - To an experienced Mathematician the formula for Pi is not a problem and very clear.. for us it is 3.1415 and don't ask us how you get it ! To a Pigmi in Africa the formula does not exist nor is it even a question or thought within his mind. Does that mean Pi does not exist? It is a calculation that is infinite - without end of computation and non-repeating yet we know that it exists for a certainty and precise. You do not argue against Pi. Why would you? When you order a pizza you know the Large is the best deal..lets see a 9" at $8.95 and a 15" at $13.95 I'll take the 15 and who cares about Pi. That is where most Christians are at ! They get the pizza ( saved ) and if asked about the workings thereof they are clueless and may even give you a wrong answer ( ie. God loves everyone ) They are still saved but they are clueless as to why except in prayer. There they thank and know that it is indeed God's favour that has saved them but off their knees they may fight and scream that they deserve some kind of credit for at least 1% of the effort or that God cannot play favourites just as you :-} In their world Pi may be 3.14.... In my world Pi is 3.1415... To another it is greater but Who cares when dealing with Pizza or Basic Salvation??? Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. They get down on their knees and ASK for Salvation... do they ask how they ended up on their knees? Do they really care ? I care because that is what I am called to. The space program cannot get by on 3.1415... it is not enough! RE>>". If the bible was clear to even just the faithfull and the believers,<< The Bible as Pi is clear and indeed the basic elements of Salvation are very clear. The rest is designed to be hidden from those who do not experience Salvation. That is God's design! I have shown you that that is how we who are truly saved can "see" each other in a world of deceivers and false teachers. Those who are being saved hear me - the younger ones who are being saved and are yet locked into a carnal understanding do not hear my explanations of Pi or Predestination but God gives them enough spiritual discernment to see that I am His and they merely decide I must be confused :-} Later, some of them will look back and laugh - right now they see me as proud and confused... some kind of nutty professor whose wheels came off the wagon of life. The unsaved and uncalled cannot even look graciously upon those things I say nor give place to even wonder if I am speaking the truth about God. It is beyond them! God's Word is not the problem! It is clear but we the saved are dull! The rest are blinded! John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. God hardened Pharoah's heart and gave him strength to do evil. Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Your problem is that your criteria of Judgement is warped to start. This is the case: 1. The Bible is a Spiritual document and must be approached as such and unlike other literature written by mere men. 2. The Bible is written to hide truth from unspiritual men. 3. It is written in a manner that those who are to be saved can understand the necessary elements of Salvation. 4. It is written in a way that the spiritual and diligent can grow in understanding all their lives and yet not reach an end of that growth. 5. It is written in a manner as to actually leave the pages of physical paper and become spiritual life within the very soul of the believer and they have power in the spiritual realm even to the demons and the evil one. 6. The words are but words unless the Spirit of God brings them life and grants spiritual hearing and seeing to the reader. 7. God uses His word in different ways with different individual believers growing them into differing places and/or levels within the body of believers. If you look at the life of any believer and ask if they have perfect understanding of all things they will say no. How is that different than medicine? We no longer use leeches to reduce fever ( however some men alive today still swear by it ) does that make the Body of man of the Nature of disease unfixed or certain? The Bible is certain and to those who understand it after they understand very very clear! Eureka! It is FIXED and CERTAIN ! AxA + BxB = CxC God's Word is a TWO EDGED SWORD. It both heals and kills. It both saves and damns. It causes both men to see and the rest to be confounded and hardened. I am astounded at the perfection of the work. It is manifestly the work of God and not of men. It is beyond anything men could invent or do either in the past or the future. It is altogether a wonder and beautiful. This is the BOTTOM LINE Mark Once a man is born of the spirit and experienced the Word of God come to life you will never convince him that it is not God's Word. *That Man KNOWS* it is the WORD of GOD! Another may come and present itself .. book of Moron or Koran.. We know it is merely the work of misguided and blinded men. To those who are NOT born-again of the spirit.. those may become 99% convinced by various self-evident elements of the scriptures. The very loftiness of the Wisdom contained therein. The witness of the church to a reverent esteem of the work. The unquestioned majesty of the ancient parts making a uniform and relevant whole. The fulfilments of prophecies especially those of Christ Jesus. The inability to comprehend human fabrication of such events and matters through the ages concerning salvation. The beauty of the moral law and justice of God therein. The blatant truth concerning the lives of those presented therein as to the verity thereof.. Need I go on to "carnal reasons" and evidences that make it absurd to doubt the truth and reliability of God's Word. Indeed to call it a lie without proof strikes at the very heart of Justice itself. Guilty of being a lie until Proven Innocent cries the evil man ! Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; Yet no man is 100% assured without the Holy Spirit being granted by the Mercy of God. ===== I am 100% SURE of God's Word ===== Those who are outside can never be sure yet they are left without excuse even by the revelation contained within nature itself. Their very hearts teaching them the moral truth and Justice of God so that every man is without excuse. You argue in this direction... You desire to prove that since I will not admit that God is a bad communicator that the ENTIRE BIBLE must be taken figuratively due to the variety of interpretations. Therefore no man can assert anything for a certainty since it cannot be taken literally and there is so much dispute as to the "real" meaning. Therefore God cannot be known for a certainty through the Bible. Therefore the Bible is worthless in the pursuit of God and open to individual understands and concepts of the flesh. Therefore being uncertain and changing it cannot be the Word of an unchanging God. Therefore the Bible is a hoax and a lie. The Classical name for this argumentation is " Reducto Absurdom " (sp?) or reducing to the level of being absurd! I repeat... you are dishonest and working evil even after I explain your fallacies. Your arguments are pathetic and sinful not honest and sincere. You ignore my answers and persist in them. Your arguing is what is absurd here Mark. For your argument to work you have to change the very plainly revealed intent of scripture. You have to lump the whole of the Bible into being one huge "parable" which it is NOT. It is both figurative and literal at different parts. ( Even the parables have definite meaning as Jesus pointed out by "interpreting" some of them for an example right within the Word.) Is Pi 'unknowable' if not known by ALL ? Or Is Pi 'unknowable' if the value of the furthest decimal becomes refined through further study ?** ................... absurd argument indeed................... I would conclude by saying this to you Mark. Considering the great cloud of witnesses you as an individual have had and are receiving either one of two things will occur. 1. You will get saved. 2. You will suffer a very severe Judgement. Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. These witnesses are not FREE ! Entertaining as they may be. They were bought at a very great cost. The Blood of Jesus Christ the innocent.