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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Rambi who wrote (67207)	12/18/1999 4:33:00 PM
From: Alexander	Respond to of 108807

Hello Rambi, We have not discussed the ways in which man learns in general..Not from the wonderful things that happen.. but the more painful experiences are the greatest teachers..:-)

To: Rambi who wrote (67207)	12/18/1999 4:41:00 PM
From: George S. Montgomery	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

penni, I am just going to do a brief interjection. (I regret that 'provocative' silliness of a while ago.) What seems to be happening in this long-drawn discussion of 'spanking' children seems to have happened, was it years ago, with an almost totally different cast of characters: the discussion on god, or God, or nothing. There were the bible folk, and there were the almost bible hating folk. One of these was a poor guy whose legs and all had been horribly damaged. A loving/hating guy. I only asked, in that dialogue, two things take place. One was that we define God/god before we start speculating, or arguing, about (H)his/(H)her/(I)its role in the affairs of us humans. The second was that we acknowledge that we are all challenged by our own literal ignorance...that none of us really knows everthing. In this spanking/beating children scene, it seems the same two questions could be raised. Like, for one, doing a continuum of HORROR. Beating senselessly being on the one end, and going tsk-tsk or tut-tut with a smile, being on the other. A single example: Cruelty, and Christine's life-disrupting damages, has to be physical? Where, on the spectrum do physical, as contrasted with non-physical, expressions lie? I have seen hatred, scorn, and damnation in the faces of parents who have "scolded" their kids without laying a hand on them. A communication, to the child, of this sort of domination and damnation, certainly has to rank above a wrist slap, or a 'wire warning.' On the other end, what if there is a loving sense of physical punishment as a 'price' the kid pays for being a goof-off? Like, Oh, shit, pop or mom, I'm ready for the swat? Point second, none of us really KNOW...because, as I held with the god-thing, yes, there was Emile et al...because these items are not like peas or jelly beans. They cannot be categorized in jars and then have conclusions drawn on the number in each jar. I seriously believe that the varient is the degree of love, justice and honor that accompanies each occurence. A hateful stare (at one's own child) being possibly more harmful that a 'this is going to hurt my more than you' spanking. I advocate neither. Simply say, again, that our definitions and our knowledge are both sort of shy in providing grounds for such extraordinary discussions - as the one which has been going on. Well, Christine, I have tipped my toe in your stream. Sorry you asked? george

To: Rambi who wrote (67207)	12/18/1999 7:39:00 PM
From: CharleyMike	Respond to of 108807

almost all severely damaged--drug and alcohol addicted, imprisoned, mentally ill-...... You obviously are acquainted with me. LOL. I've been reading the discussion regarding spanking, corporal punishment, and/or beating for several days. It has caused me to re-assess my feelings on the subject. I feel qualified to post on this matter because my father was an extremely harsh disciplinarian who never spared the rod, much less the fist, foot, or whatever else was handy. Split lips, bruises, cracked ribs, blackened eyes and the occasional stitch were the result. I still see a facial scar every morning when I look in the mirror to shave. At various times in my sixty years, all of the adjectives in italics above applied to me. Most of which I seem to have overcome (LOL, I'm not too sure about the last). I am against child abuse. I will stand up to anyone anywhere to stop it, even should it mean my arrest and return to prison. However, children sometimes need stronger discipline than time-outs or strong admonishment. The verbal abuse, when it is abuse, is in my experience more destructive than the physical. Strong willed children sometimes need to have their attention directed to the results of their behavior. An open-handed swat strong enough to startle is probably sufficient. Children described as sensitive seem to have learned that crying alleviates punishment. (They seem to learn this quickly when it works). This word,"sensitive", appears to be incorrectly spelled, IMO, it should be "spoiled". Blaming childhood abuse for adult behavior is malarkey. I made all of the decisions that caused me problems, up to, and including the about-face that ended them all. I take responsibility for them all as much as it grieves me to do so. Teach a child responsibility for his/her actions and give them no unjust discipline. But don't be afraid to discipline when required. An child with no self discipline is more likely to experience all those italicized adjectives than one who accepts personal responsibility. Enough. This is an interesting thread. Lotsa' discussing lotsa' topics. Many folks here are trying to be good parents and, if what I read is true, many are succeeding. Congratulations to those that are successfull and appreciation to those who continue to try.

To: Rambi who wrote (67207)	12/19/1999
From: Grainne	Respond to of 108807

Okay, Penni, respectfully and gently disagreeing, I just don't believe parents have an implied/inherent right to hit their children. I think Sweden did something wonderful when it made spanking illegal; there are communities in America like Oakland where it is at least being discussed. And I think this debate is very healthy. How can we say that hitting your wife is no longer okay, but hitting your child is? I don't think it is hard to prove a direct correlation between spanking and mental illness, depression, alcohol and drug abuse, criminal activity, etc. I think that is what the Canadian study did, and I expect more studies to follow. I also think it is wonderful that this subject is being studied much more closely. I think it IS hard to prove any positive correlation between spanking and anything at all, and that is what I think is more crucial. I have never asserted that all spanked children will turn out badly, just that it is not a positive parenting practice. I agree with most of your statements, including the one (paraphrasing here) that is is sort of a lazy practice when there might be better ways of dealing with the situation. The elegance and simplicity of simply making all spanking illegal is that then you do NOT have an intrusive intervention by the state in determining whether the spanking arises from an angry and loveless home environment, or total neglect except for a physical response. It is very clean, black and white if you will. I would be perfectly happy to discuss something else, Penni. Global warming, maybe?