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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (68768)	12/26/1999 8:13:00 PM
From: Edwarda	Respond to of 108807

Thank you, X, for raising the serious questions for which there are no easy answers. Regardless of what people eventually conclude, they have to stare the complexities in the eye and deal with them. You are pushing the complexities into the discussion and I, for one, appreciate it.

To: epicure who wrote (68768)	12/26/1999 8:19:00 PM
From: Lizzie Tudor	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Do you suppose it's because really bright MEN have been socialized to realize that our culture values the big bucks? While some women still haven't got a clue? How old are the women?

To: epicure who wrote (68768)	12/26/1999 9:21:00 PM
From: greenspirit	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

First of all, I never said increased pay wouldn't benefit education. You appear to be doing exactly what Christine does. That being, if someone doesn't completely agree with your point of view, that means they must completely disagree with it. Far from it in my case. Raising teacher salaries would help in the short run to alleviate local problems in education. But raising salaries and spending more money is NOT the answer to the systemic problems plaguing the government school system. I'm not about to type a dissertation on how the structure of an organization predetermines problems such as the ones we currently see in government education. But it does, and it's well known to people who have studied organizations as systems. Raise the salaries? Certainly, but first change the SYSTEM of delivering knowledge. Otherwise, you have put a finger in a dike hole of the real problem. The problem with education is not spending. It is structure. To change the structure of public education requires a different way of thinking. One way to get there is by instituting a voucher system. Another would be charter schools. In order to change an organization you first need to create a sense of urgency to change. Where do you believe that sense is going to come from when a system is impervious to the needs of the customer and or competitors? Montessori schools work because they are structural connected to the needs of their customers. They wouldn't survive in a free market if they weren't. And I'm happy to pay what it costs to educate my kids when I see I am receiving real value for my money. I'm not happy to pay for raising teacher or administrators salaries when I see no attempt to change and meet the needs of the customers. The teachers aren't to blame for the current problem. The leadership and public who insist on continuing with a socialistic model of education are. Until the public is educated beyond the fearmongering sound-bites of the NEA, very little will ever change positive in government education. The wealthy will continue to send their kids to private schools, the upper middle class will raise taxes via local levies and believe they are solving all the problem in their local district, and the poor and inner city kids will suffer needlessly in an education system someone should have shot long ago like a dying horse. The Soviet Unions' model of socialistic monopolistic control of industry probably had it's supporters up until the bitter end too. As it will unfortunately be for our current educational system. Why we can't (as a society) learn from the lessons of history is very strange to me. Michael

To: epicure who wrote (68768)	12/27/1999 2:03:00 AM
From: Michael M	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Without going through your post point by point ( I apologize if you think this distorts your meaning), I would like to say just a couple of things. On sex -- the following concerns high school -- My son-in-law's school (in Queens) has a distinct majority of males on the faculty. My friends who teach in "international" schools overseas work in a 75 percent+ male environment and my son's school faculty is probably close to 90 percent male. Means nothing other than I know a LOT of male teachers. On money -- if a teacher wants to bolt out the door with the kids when the bell rings, his reward will be merely adequate. If he/she wants to work till five (like most people) he can coach, direct a variety of other student activities, take responsibility for various administrative chores at the school. He can teach a session of summer school. He can tutor. He can consult with industry. My point is -- if you are willing to do the time, you can make a damn good living as a teacher. ALL the teachers I know LOVE teaching and none are living anywhere near the poverty line. Far from it. M