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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (69730)	1/1/2000 3:56:00 PM
From: Grainne	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

I have read extensive quotes by the Founding Fathers, and would not agree that they spoke overwhelmingly of the civilizing aspects of religion. These are just a few of the relevant quotes. I could find a whole bunch more if you are interested in debating the point: The United States is in no sense founded upon Christian docrtrine" G. Washington "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature" . Thomas Jefferson "It does me not injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or not god. Neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Thomas Jefferson The bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion" A. Lincoln "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any other church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." Thomas Paine The point of the quote about separation of church and state in the Tripoli treaty is that it reaffirms the intent of the Founding Fathers regarding the separation. Whether they were speaking to Muslims or Zulus or whatever really has very little to do with the statement, which is VERY CLEAR in its intent. I would agree that various accommodations to the beliefs of the majority were made by municipalities, states and the Federal government in the past. That does not mean that these accommodations were constitutionally sound, and certainly they have often been challenged successfully. I think the conservatives in America are certainly free to challenge the separation of church and state, but I also think that finds them in conflict with the Constitution and the beliefs of the Founding Fathers. It is, therefore, arguable that they are conservative, or patriotic, at all, but simply religious zealots, or in the case of posters like Michael Cummings, believers in ideas such as school vouchers and taxation avoidance to the extent that these become the paramount principles of their arguments, rather than the Constitution. Here is a record of Supreme Court decisions supporting the concept of separation of church and state. There certainly is a lot of legal precedent! U.S. Supreme Court Decisions Illinois ex rel. McCollum v. Board of Education of School District, 333 U.S. 203 (1948) Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional. Burstyn v. Wilson, 72 S. Ct. 777 (1952) Government may not censor a motion picture because it is offensive to religious beliefs. Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961) Court holds that the state of Maryland can not require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause. Engel v. Vitale, 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962) Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion. Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional. Epperson v. Arkansas, 89 S. Ct. 266 (1968) State statue banning teaching of evolution is unconstitutional. A state cannot alter any element in a course of study in order to promote a religious point of view. A state's attempt to hide behind a nonreligious motivation will not be given credence unless that state can show a secular reason as the foundation for its actions. Lemon v. Kurtzman, 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971) Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment's separation of church and state: 1) the government action must have a secular purpose; 2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion; 3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion. Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980) Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional. Wallace v. Jaffree, 105 S. Ct. 2479 (1985) State's moment of silence at public school statute is unconstitutional where legislative record reveals that motivation for statute was the encouragement of prayer. Court majority silent on whether "pure" moment of silence scheme, with no bias in favor of prayer or any other mental process, would be constitutional. Edwards v. Aquillard, 107 S. Ct. 2573 (1987) Unconstitutional for state to require teaching of "creation science" in all instances in which evolution is taught. Statute had a clear religious motivation. Allegheny County v. ACLU, 492 U.S. 573 (1989) Court finds that a nativity scene displayed inside a government building violates the Establishment Clause. Lee v. Weisman, 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992) Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It involves government sponsorship of worship. Court majority was particularly concerned about psychological coercion to which children, as opposed to adults, would be subjected, by having prayers that may violate their beliefs recited at their graduation ceremonies. Church of Lukumi Babalu Ave. , Inc. v. Hialeah, 113 S. Ct. 2217 (1993) City's ban on killing animals for religious sacrifices, while allowing sport killing and hunting, was unconstitutional discrimination against the Santeria religion. infidels.org