As I stated before I found some of Debian's anti other distributions ways as distastful. So I wrote an email to one who I consider a Godfather of Linux development. Mostly this is in kernel and SMP techy stuff. But he would always provide a balanced and fair opinion. It's not esr. So I my email include his words to me.
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Tom Watson wrote:
> Dear ..., I'm writing to you a sage of Linux lore and history. I
> also believe that you like I am a Linux distribution agnostic. Personal
> tastes rule in a set of good Linux distributions.
>
> Recently from my day trader Linux research had occasion to visit
> debian.org . The general thrust of what I was looking for
> was what packages or applications were available for Debian and what was
> the Debian install process. So I switched to the packages page.
> debian.org I was somewhat taken aback by
> the clearly anti alternative distribution message being preached by
> Debian.
>
> "View the packages in the unstable distributions
> This directory contains packages that are destined for the main,
> contrib, non-free or non-us stable distributions above. They have
> either not been fully tested (and could therefore break your system) or
> have not been around long enough to make it into the regular
> distribution. "
>
> In past at Linux shows I had stopped and spoke with the Debian folks and
> always left with a minor bad taste in my mouth as all seemed to always
> want to tell me what was wrong with every other distribution. I never
> really thought about though. So to my question. Is Linux a
> meritocracy?
>
> Well what I'm really wondering is, Should ....... write a story of how
> sometimes the cult can get in the way of good meritocracy.
Yo, Tom.
Hmmmm, if only I had time it might be fun, but alas; I'm totally swamped. Also, I think the answer is that linux is a meritocracy, sort of, but that "merit" is a complex thing that has room in it for cults as well as corps. Many linuxophiles are a bit zealous about the whole
linux "movement" (an emotionally loaded word that conveys zeal, right) and it is usually harmless.
>From what I know of Debian from debianophiles of my acquaintance, it hasseveral things going for it. Each of them also goes somewhat against it. Whether you view the whole thing as right for you depends on how you balance them. Debian has:
a) The best install mechanism and package distribution system, bar none. So of course they "hate" RPM's. So do I, in a lot of ways. When you upgrade a package on a debian box, it automatically goes out over the net and resolves all the dependencies and upgrades exactly what it needs to to make everything work, in real time. Amazing, really, but
also exactly what one would like to have. It's maddening that RH still lacks this facility since, as Alan Cox has pointed out, the failure isn't in the RPM spec itself.
b) The COST of this is that Debian is perpetually behind the bleeding edge, because they have to resolve all dependencies forwards and backwards across all libraries and verify an auto-upgrade path for anything they put up as "supported". If you like, they can "get away"
with the auto-upgrade feature by being so conservative that you can only upgrade the core distribution rarely (and, in all probability, all at once) or can upgrade with contributed things built off the mainline debian libraries. In the latter case, though, things break all the time
and even spectacularly when you get far enough outside their mainline dependency tree or too far in advance of their current supported revision.
c) An additional cost is that they miss out on the synergy one gets from having multiple sources (RH and SUSE, sure, but also many others)
contributing RPM's. Some of them even with money and maintenance resources.
d) Another benefit is that they are totally and even religiously anticorporate. They really carry the open source, free for the universe banner and wrap it around themselves like a robe of honor. This isn't
really a bad thing -- it helps keep companies like RH honest. It also helps apply pressure to e.g. KDE to stay in or very close to the open source model.
e) Which also has the deficit that they view companies like RH as "sellouts" on their way toward Microsofting linux, and deliberately avoid being "compatible" with RPM-based distributions. As you say, there is a bit of cultishness about them. This is a pretty minor sin,
though, and the "market" will eventually sort out all the rest.
> It seems to me that Debian is clearly anti RPM and RPM can provide the
> most extensive access to easy to install Linux applications. As more
> and more use Linux success at install of applications is at the heart of
> the most productive Linux experience.
Well, yes, but it is IMMENSELY frustrating to work with RPM's. They don't automate well at all. Even RH's own upgrade path throws up its hands in disgust at the concept of an online 6.0->6.1 upgrade. I've managed a few, but only by beating the software on the head until it gives up (and maybe breaking a few things). They WANT you to do a clean
reinstall on each upgrade. Resolving dependency knots is difficult even by hand and impossible in software.
I personally am using RH these days to be able to take advantage of the large rufus.w3.org repository (and for other reasons, but they're less important really). I'm perfectly happy for debian and slackware (etc)
to trundle right along, though -- the more the merrier, and even if they don't manage to succeed (or survive) in the long run, they'll likely make any number of useful contributions before they fail. And really,
there is no reason that they should fail. Unlike the MS world, linux can tolerate and even thrives on diversity. As long as debian can attract a core of users who are happy using it and work to maintain it, more power to it. If they succeed in THEIR plans for "world domination"
so much the better -- it will give me choices to Red Hat (and they can only do so by effectively duplicating the choice of packages on rufus but making them easier to select and use and install and uninstall).
Maybe their next major release will be the easiest linux in the known universe with the richest package set? Who knows?
In the meantime they are an excellent source of pressure on RH to improve their RPM managers and automate a lot of things that have to be done by hand now.
Now, you wanna see a CULT, you have to look at Steven (I'm Right. Worship Me.) Jobs and his historical career. There's religion for you. In linux the cults, however religious they are about linux in general, are remarkably fickle about distributions. Except for a committed core, the distributions are eventually selected on a basis of ease of use and completeness, with the usual resistance to changing once one has mastered something. Competition, especially competition with a genetic cross-fertilization of information and Clever Tricks, is a beneficial thing.
> Oh, did I ever send you a like to my pooter page.
> watman.com
I hesitated to even try a link named pooter. Jeeze;-) Looks
interesting, though. I'm thinking more and more about getting 19-21" flatpanels in the future because my eyes are starting to go (after 45 years of 20/20 vision, so not unreasonably so:-) and I'm concerned that soft xrays from the cathode-gun screens might be contributing. I'm
pretty chronically exposed (probably 8 hours/day average or even more), even if the normal emission rates are very, very low.
-----------------------------------
Tom Watson tosiwmee |
