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Politics : To be a Liberal,you have to believe that..... -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Neocon who wrote (5500)1/20/2000 10:24:00 AM
From: C Kahn  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 6418
 
Neocon, your message reminds me of a quote I heard.

"The harder I worked, the luckier I got".

I don't remember who said it, but I think there is much wisdom and truth in it. This may not apply to people in other countries, but in America it does.
Colleen



To: Neocon who wrote (5500)1/20/2000 10:50:00 AM
From: MNI  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 6418
 
An interesting discussion. I guess you hit the right crack in Gustave's argumentation by saying America is less class- bound than many European countries.
However, at the same time you opened access to equal cracks that I assume to be starting points for Gustave's admonitions by saying: In America, people are judged by how they play the hand they are dealt, which means that someone from the slums who becomes the manager of a supermarket may be regarded more highly than a person "born with a silver spoon in his mouth" who becomes the president of a bank.
and
In sum, although acquisitiveness is part of the American character, it is tempered by other considerations, and one should not overestimate the degree that success is measured in dollars.......
Although I have no doubt that those are correct depictions of American reality, they are contrary to what MikeH said, and Gustave criticized, about the validity of IQ testing as predictors of success, and a means of deciding over the question whether the job system as a whole is meritocratically legitimate or not. (It wouldn't be true if either the supermarket manager earned more than the bank president, or if their social success was measured on a different scale, independent from earnings, and the results on this scale were used to calibrate IQ tests instead of monthly earning).

I see the whole discussion less as one that can succeed in offering explanations on why either European societies or the US are what they are, and do what they do, than as one that exemplifies that neither society has a narrative or myth in the background that can explain consistently all what happens inside them. :-)

I hope nobody will claim that the IQ-success-correlation is or has to be 100% per cent, to say it differently.

Regards MNI.



To: Neocon who wrote (5500)1/20/2000 12:21:00 PM
From: GUSTAVE JAEGER  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 6418
 
Thanks for reassuring me, Neocon! Mike's equation was rather excessive:

The higher your IQ = the higher your IQ/SAT/... scores = the bigger your payslip! Ultimately, it comes down to claim that in order to estimate somebody's intellectual quality, all you have to do is to check his/her bank account!

Here's RECOMMENDED READING for Mike:

THE BIG TEST
THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN MERITOCRACY

The story of the SAT and standardized testing, by Nicholas Lemann


the-big-test.com

Excerpt from Chap.I:

Here is what American society looked like, from the point of view of Conant and Chauncey, at the close of the Second World War. They took it as a given that the essence of American greatness was a quality that Alexis de Tocqueville had remarked upon early in the nineteenth century: social equality, of a kind that would be unthinkable in any other country. Because the United States didn't have a rigid class system, it could take full advantage of its people's talents and at the same time generate intense social cohesion across a range of physical space and a variety of ethnic origin that elsewhere would have been considered insuperable.

But during the early twentieth century American society had taken an ominous turn. Conant and Chauncey accepted without question the view of Frederick Jackson Turner, the historian of the American West who was a Harvard professor in their younger days, that what had made the United States democratic and classless was the availability of open land on the Western frontier. Now the frontier was closed, the country had become industrial, and the cities were crowded with immigrant workers, many of whom were socialists--or who, at the very least, believed that group unity, rather than individual opportunity, was the highest good.

Even worse, a distinct American upper class had emerged. It was very much on display at Harvard and other leading universities, where, up to the start of the Second World War, rich heedless young men with servants, whose lives revolved around parties and sports, not studying, set the tone of college life. The plurality of Harvard students had come from boys' boarding schools in New England, the kind where parents could register their sons at birth; pretty much anybody who went to one of these schools, and was not "a little slow," and could pay the tuition, could go to Harvard, or to Princeton, or to Yale. Even the faculty was disproportionately made up of proper Bostonians, rather than modern academics.

Harvard and institutions like it fed into another series of institutions: law firms, Wall Street financial houses, the Foreign Service, research hospitals, and university faculties. These, too, had begun to look like the province of a hereditary upper class. All the good places were reserved for members of a certain group--the all-male, Eastern, high-Protestant, privately educated group to which Henry Chauncey belonged. No Catholics or Jews were allowed, except in rare cases that required of them a careful extirpation of any accent or other noticeable expression of their alien culture. Nonwhites weren't in close enough range of membership in the elite to be excluded. And even the fieriest social reformers of the day didn't think to suggest that women ought routinely to participate in running the country. Snobbishness, small-mindedness, and prejudice were the worst aspects of the elite institutions, but even at their best they were preoccupied with a vaguely defined personal quality called "character," and tended to ignore intelligence and scientific expertise. But these, precisely, were the traits Conant thought most vitally necessary in postwar America.

What could you do to dethrone this upper class and restore the United States to its true democratic nature? It was a question without an obvious answer. Using the educational system to create a fair society, which seems today like the way to do the job, looked then like a distant, unrealized, possibly unrealizable dream.

At the close of the Second World War, the United States had been the world's leader in trying to educate a large part of the citizenry for more than a hundred years. During the nineteenth century Americans created, not without a struggle, the free public elementary school as a basic social institution and, during the first half of the twentieth century, the high school. These institutions weren't well enough established to be taken for granted as they are now. In 1940 the country still hadn't passed the milestone of graduating more than half its teenagers from high school. The idea that there might be a way of evaluating all American high-school students on a single national standard and then making sure that they went on to colleges suited to their abilities and ambitions--most people would have regarded that as a wild, futuristic fantasy, although Chauncey and Conant were among a handful of people who knew that, technically, it could be done. [...]