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Politics : Bill Clinton Scandal - SANITY CHECK -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Johannes Pilch who wrote (65579)	2/5/2000 3:06:00 PM
From: miraje	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 67261

Perhaps there is no point of going on with a discussion of abortion, though I personally quite enjoy seeing how you strain to justify what you must know is unjustifiable. There really is no point. I enjoy the occasional philosophical jousting, not to change your mind (or anyone elses), but for purely personal benefit. There is no strain involved. I'm sure that you're aware of the difference between opinion and fact, but I've never seen you preface your opinions with the fact that that's what they are, opinions. Abortion is a fact. It exists. That you and others consider it murder and thoroughly morally reprehensible is a fact. That you view it as unjustifiable is a fact. That some others do not view it from your perspective is also a fact. The point at which life begins is not indisputable. I have stated my opinion (and stated it as an opinion). If one claims thoughts are the fundamental measure of man, one might just as well claim the same about legs and arms. "I think, therefore I am" is ancient child's play. We now know better. Oh, indeed? What are you, Mr. Pilch, without your thoughts? Are you alive? Can your arms and legs survive without your thoughts? Can you think and survive without possessing arms and legs? And your statement, "We now know better." Does not "knowing" presuppose thinking? Look closely at "I think (and feel), therefore I am." You eloquently observe that we are more than thoughts and feelings. The key is, what is the "I" that thinks and feels? A soul, an essence? Call it what you will. And where does it come from? Indeed, one of the great mysteries. You view the answer from a theological perspective, ie, a gift from God. I prefer to leave it an open question. That which is unknowable is precisely that. Even so, many people who once felt and thought, but who no longer feel or think, but who have the mere potential to again feel and think, are not people in your limited view. A person can lose conscience, be certain to gain conscience (as a foetus is certain to gain conscience) and yet be murdered without any questions asked. That is not my view and I never stated such. A person (yes, I use the word) who is in an irrecoverable state of complete cessation of brain functioning, whos breathing and feeding are performed by machines, is no longer alive, IMO. The choice of what to do in such circumstances should be left to the discretion of family members. And a fetus is, by no means, certain to gain consciousness. A number are spontaneously miscarried and a few are carried to term without having developed a brain, to name some exceptions. This 'wide divergence' is the result of ignorance or something worse. The facts are before us. Humanity's essence reaches farther than mere thought. Thought is but a mechanism for human expression and survival. It is not a self-existent, self-promoting entity, but plainly depends upon one. It plainly is not fundamental humanity itself, and you should thank God for this fact, particularly after your performance here (grin). Opinion again (grin). But of course common sense is not what it used to be. Sure it is, although it might be less in evidence these days.