SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Pastimes : The New Qualcomm - write what you like thread. -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Drew Williams who wrote (1669)4/24/2000 10:57:00 PM
From: Maurice Winn  Respond to of 12236
 
***OT on Elian*** Drew, I'd never heard of Peggy Noonan, and I hope I never do again. She seems unworthy of attention. I didn't see 'reasonable'. I saw simple malice.

I think I'll forget about it all now and wait for, oh, I'd guess about 15 years at which time I think we'll be hearing again from Elian. He'll have his own mind by then and some people might be surprised by what the cute little toy who was jerked around by so many comes up with.

The last 6 months [and earlier parental split] will NOT leave him untouched. He seems to have a robust mind and a good childhood behind him and probably ahead of him so I don't believe he will turn inward and self-destructive.

His extraordinarily long finger-nailed cousin might be appreciated but I doubt he confuses her with his mother though she seesm to have that confusion herself. His 'Great Uncle' who cared so much for his own ideas and so little for Elian will be in an interesting position too.

I'm quite surprised how it seems to be a Republican Party idea that the USA acted incorrectly. The Senator with the pink Easter egg looked a joke. Did he really think that such a trivial bauble had any significance compared with a dead mother, a father and grandmothers without a son, a disrupted childhood, state conflicts, court decisions and armed police trying to enforce laws. 6 year old children are not mindless drips who just want an Easter egg. Did he really think the father would want to see him? How did he think he would help Elian? The whole thing is the most absurd joke I've seen for years. Though Jiang Zemin's 50th celebrations were good competition.

As you say, to compare that with Kent State killing is absurd.

But now, the USA has to decide whether to do like the USSR and stop them escaping back to Cuba. If the Dad flees with his son, will the border guards shoot them like they used to at the East German border when people fled USSR? After all, it was the law that people could not leave USSR! All very interesting and the story has a way to go. I imagine the USA will very quickly fly the two of them back to Cuba.

Cuban Americans will lose much of what political influence they had after their absurd performance. The Republicans won't have done themselves much good either.

I thought the father and grandmothers are the people who came best out of this, after the boy who coped with a very amazing adventure, apparently not too badly.

Time [not the magazine] will tell.

Mqurice



To: Drew Williams who wrote (1669)5/1/2000 4:04:00 PM
From: Drew Williams  Respond to of 12236
 
Clipped from Slate

chatterbox

More on That Eli n Search Warrant

By Timothy Noah


Chatterbox has just learned a great new rhetorical trick. If
someone catches you making an error, don't say, "Whoops, I goofed."
Say, "Taken out of context, my sentence to the contrary was
obviously mistaken." That's how Harvard law professor Laurence
Tribe answers Chatterbox's item, "How About Reading That Eli n
Warrant?," which disputed Tribe's assertion (in an April 25 New
York Times op-ed) that the search warrant used by the federal
agents who seized Eli n Gonzalez in Miami was "not a warrant to
seize the child." As Chatterbox pointed out in the item, the
warrant was indeed "a warrant to seize the child."

More important than whether Larry Tribe did his homework, of
course, is whether Tribe's general point was correct. Was the Eli n
raid a violation of Fourth Amendment protections against
unreasonable searches and seizures? In part, this question turns on
whether it was appropriate for the Immigration and Naturalization
Service to invoke Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 41(b), which
says that a federal law enforcement agent may seize a person who is
being "unlawfully restrained." Tribe says, in his response, that
this is irrelevant because Eli n Gonzalez wasn't "unlawfully
restrained." He was restrained against an order from the INS, and
the INS isn't the law. And the federal magistrate who approved the
warrant isn't the law, either, or shouldn't be the law, because
he's acting like a mere "Xerox machine" (instead of playing his
customary role, which, Tribe writes, tends to be that of "rubber
stamp").

That federal magistrates grant warrants too readily is not a new
argument, and Chatterbox, lacking much firsthand knowledge, isn't
inclined to take Tribe on about this. But Chatterbox doesn't really
see any practical difference between a "rubber stamp" magistrate
and a "Xerox machine" magistrate. That is, if federal magistrates
tend to be too accommodating, Chatterbox doesn't see what makes the
magistrate who approved the Eli n warrant, Robert Dub‚, any worse
than most of his peers. Chatterbox has somewhat less patience for
the "federal magistrates are an easy lay" argument when it's waged
by the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal, which usually
takes a hard line on law-and-order issues. An April 26 editorial in
the Journal clucks that the INS didn't present its warrant to
federal Judge Michael Moore, but rather waited till after 7 p.m. on
Good Friday, "when they knew Judge Moore would not be there." An
accompanying op-ed by Andrew Napolitano, a former New Jersey
Superior Court judge, says that Dub‚ is "notoriously pro-government
in his rulings." Indeed, both the Journal editorial board and
Napolitano hold Dub‚ in such unconscious contempt that they flub
his name, calling him (tellingly) "Rube." Or maybe there's a
non-psychological explanation: Napolitano doesn't really know much
about Dub‚, or his rulings, at all. In any event, Chatterbox
doesn't expect the Journal's newfound passion for civil liberties
to outlast the week.

Chatterbox phoned Yale Law School professor Akhil Reed Amar, a
Fourth Amendment scholar who generally believes warrants "are
dangerous things" because they can give government officials too
much power, to ask him about the constitutional issues raised by
the Eli n warrant. Amar said that Tribe is initiating "a good
conversation. ... Warrants and seizures, when you go in on your
own, are more intrusive than, say, a subpoena." But he said he
thought Tribe was wrong, and the INS was right, on the technical
question of whether this particular warrant was constitutional. In
response to Tribe's argument that the INS ought to have gotten a
court order of contempt--it did request one, but was denied-Amar
said that the INS might plausibly argue: "We were afraid, we had
good reason to think if we simply served the subpoena they were
going to hide the kid or they were going to make themselves martyrs
and say, 'You can put me in jail, but you're not getting the kid.'
" Which would have been counterproductive, Amar explained, since
the government's goal was not to put any member of the Gonz lez
family in jail, but rather to retrieve Eli n. Indeed, in today's
Washington Post, Karen DeYoung reports that the INS had a lot more
to fear than that the Gonzalezes might hide Eli n. The INS says it
had evidence that the five bodyguards providing "close-in security
for the Gonzalez family and Eli n" were armed. All five had
concealed weapons permits, and one of the five was actually seen by
a government informer carrying a gun inside the Gonzalez house.
Next case.


Click here to share your opinion of this article and see what
others have said: bbs.slate.msn.com