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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jacques Chitte who wrote (17953)	5/2/2000 2:38:00 PM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

First, neither sperm nor ovum, and certainly not carcinoma, are a human organism. Second, I did introduce gradations, by mentioning the comparative leniency with which I think early term abortions should be treated ( although I am not sure of details), and by exempting rape and incest from punishment. Third, the phrasing about the morning after pill has to do with possibly softening a stance taken by the pro- life side, as part of an attempt at comprehensive settlement, assuming that the matter ever returns to legislative purview. The lack of punitive restrictions is implied. On the "shame" issue: There should be a reluctance to abort, and a sober deliberation about one's reasons. What is wrong with that? Finally, I do not ask for a constitutional amendment, or federal legislation, but am happy to return the matter to the states for deliberation. That, by itself, is a big distinction between my position and the more hard- line pro- lifers........

To: Jacques Chitte who wrote (17953)	5/2/2000 2:46:00 PM
From: PROLIFE	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

Basically you want to retain shame as a cardinal tool to enforce keeping a pregnancy once it happened. Kind of thought provoking, huh? What you say now has become retention of shame as a tool, used to be pride in a Mother. Saying "I am going to be a mother/father", now you want to associate with a carcenoma. Just cut it off, right? That is debasing life and you know it. No way around it. Aborting a ten-week embryo should not be placed on the same level of consequence, medical or moral, as dismemberment-in-place of a viable seven-month fetus. Let's introduce a sense of gradation And what about your sense of gradation using your baseline of 10 weeks: I saw a pin a long time ago of two perfectly formed feet. The lady wearing it explained to me that the pin and representation were the same size and exact features of the two perfectly formed feet of a 10 week old unborn child. ( I could post the picture URL here of the actual aborted feet that were used as the model, but I am not sure SI would allow it.) Funny, they sure don't look like any carcinoma I have ever heard of. And what about that carcinoma...how many carcinomas have you seen with a beating heart, how about brainwaves?

To: Jacques Chitte who wrote (17953)	5/6/2000 9:01:00 PM
From: nihil	Respond to of 769667

Do not play philosophical games with Neocon or any of his ilk. He has an endless deck of cards which he shuffles until the game plays out. These "moral" games (like bridge and solitaire) have nothing to do with the real world in his mind. He likes to associate these purely mental games with real world outcomes, but there are no rewards or punishment associated with winning moral solitaire in the real world. He feels better, perhaps, but no one else needs to pay any attention. He amuses by telling other people that they are bad because they rid themselves of unwanted embryos and fetuses or help women so rid themselves. It is only in his head that he conceives it is wrong or evil. Is he willing to execute women who choose abortion? Does he classify abortion as homicide or manslaughter? Does he really want not to unplug the moribund and let them die? I live in a quite different world than he does. I make no strong differentiation between people and animals. I care much more about my family and my animals than other people and other animals. I just spent some of my scarce, precious time rescuing a mouse (my mouse!) from a toilet and releasing him into wild. I just spent several thousand dollars on tumorectomies for an 11 year old dog. She will die within a year or so, yet I would not have done it on anyone else's dog or daughter. I wouldn't have paid to care for anyone else's babies or aged great grandmothers. I know that Neocon and Prolife are so loving of life that they spends almost everything they have on helping the poor and destitute to live. I think that there are far too many living creatures in the world. I don't have time to help everyone, nor would I care to. I think many people deserve to die simply because they cannot support themselves and make no contribution. I would prefer, of course, that parents who bear children they can't afford to raise would die themselves (painlessly) but killing the unwanted, unneeded babies, (the earlier the better) seems better than nothing. The rich people don't want to pay for them, now that slavery is almost dead, but they won't let the poor people kill them without doing time. The anti-abortion movement, it seems to me, are the major contributors to high taxes and economic waste. This mindless sentimentality about preserving abstract life is pure irrationality. It is perfectly clear to me that parents who cannot afford to raise average quality children should be allowed, bribed, or forced to stop having them. It is inexcusable IMO to permit anyone who wants an abortion from having as many as they need. Go and see the starving masses of the world. Try Africa. Go to ghetto (or suburban) schools. Try to find kids who want to accomplish something or even do their duty. Ask college kids to write down their ambitions, their dreams, their hopes. Think if among these kids there are one or more who want to gun down their classmates and teachers. Most people (and mosquitoes) appear to be totally unnecessary. Most cannot justify themselves. I would like them first of all to be loved. Everyone of them. I would like the parents not to have to ones they cannot love. I would like them to become learned. Since the parents cannot be smarter on average than their kids, I would like their teachers to be smarter than (most of) the students (maybe all of them). I think we should stop worrying about all of the kids we cannot afford to bear or raise. We should certainly stop the worrying about other peoples' unborn babies. We should prevent them by contraception, sterilizatrion, or, even better, abstinence. The ones who slip through can be aborted -- as soon as they show up.