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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: greenspirit who wrote (18364)	5/7/2000 4:14:00 PM
From: E	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

<<<here is a point on these boards where a decent person backs off when anothers illogical position is exposed. E, hasn't figured out where that line is..... Now, can we move on and talk about something other than the personality problems we all undoubtedly have?>>> PROLIFE did not offer here only that one example of an "illogical" position. I believe Lather will confirm that, if you are under some misimpression about this. You evidently think that once he has acknowledged one episode of illogic, it is in"decent" of me to take up subsequent ones. Is that your position? That I am not a "decent person" because I have taken up (a small percentage of) the fabrications, illogical and unfounded accusations, and insults generated by PROLIFE here? Shall I assemble here a few of the vicious name-calling orgies PROLIFE indulged in? It's not a lot of trouble, because there has been so much of it it will be easy to locate! You say this, after your characterization of me as not "a decent person": <<<Now, can we move on and talk about something other than the personality problems we all undoubtedly have?>>> That is similar to what haqihana did, though of course at a lower decibel level. Unfounded accusations, and then... "And now let's not talk about this any more." You ask about my staying in this fight, <<What kind of state of mind does that show?>> Easy question to answer! An angry one! You guys made me mad. I don't like injustice and I don't like big lies told about me over and over again. And until it stops, or I run out of steam, I'm mad enough about it to pursue it. I am as eager as anyone here to stop having this meta-discussion. But even as you guys proclaim your intention to depart this episode, you introduce fresh flourishes of insult and false characterizations, and reanimate, astonishingly, horses previously acknowledged by you to have been beaten dead. The group psychology behind all this is quite fascinating; but there are surely more fascinating subjects. There has been indecency here, Michael, and it will be elucidating for us to collaborate in a presentation of it. (Am I allowed to say "elucidating" without fear of ridicule? It is under the 12-letter cutoff allowed to me by haqihana; but then so were "disingenuous" and some other word under his 12-letter ration, and yet I was ridiculed for using them. Go figure.) I ask you to either state that you think PROLIFE and haqihana have behaved decently toward me, or show me where you objected to their indecency; and I look forward to presenting samples of their indecencies if you can't find any. BIG LIE TECHNIQUE: Say something often enough, people will think it's true. It has been claimed here over and over again that I have presented myself as a "snob." Haqihana just said again that I am even a "self-proclaimed" snob. (I've been ignoring that drumbeat.) It has been claimed, recently (there are so many false claims I will stick to those just from last night) that I said haqihana was quote "unintelligent" unquote. I believe that is a fabrication, too. It is an easy one for him to prove as he put quotes around the word, showing that he wasn't just interpreting something that way, but that I actually said it! I think your interest in indecency should extend itself to both sides in this discussion. I'm asking you to elicit substantiation of those just two repetitive claims, just those two among the profusion, from your friend haqi, or comment on his decency, and PROLIFE's.

To: greenspirit who wrote (18364)	5/7/2000 5:18:00 PM
From: Jacques Chitte	Respond to of 769667

>There is something very dangerous in the belief that you can never be wrong. Prolife was wrong regarding the energy output of a 4 week old fetus's heart. He admitted to it and apologized. E, never accepted it and went further than anyone should have in denigrating him for simply being wrong. Her glee was self evident and indulgent.< Michael - I disagree that this is what happened. I paid VERY close attention to the back-and-forth. E didn't denigrate him for being wrong. If that would be the case, I would have shrugged, shut up and said to myself "This is her fight now." Everybody gets to be wrong. Expecting correctness is too strict. I know this because one of my personal failings is to expect people to be correct above all else. That would be fine if I were aboard a starship crewed by Vulcans, but in the world of humans it's a recipe for profound loneliness. What I saw E respond to (and I'm on thin ice here because i am relying on an incomplete memory of dozens of posts) was ... when she began deconstructing garbage logic, she was met with a predictable but still truly subhuman chorus of "atheist, Socialist, self-obsessed harpy". In the words of Jar-jar Binks: "How rude!" But the charge that E cannot be wrong is something that I can testify to be incorrect. Build a good logical case, and I assure you - she will give it all due consideration, regardless of source. And in the instances where I have seen her to recognize an error, she has admitted it and set it right with a graciousness and initiative that is rare on these boards. Now, whether I regard her awesome persistence with confused disbelief - or undisguised admiration - or both simultaneously! - I don't see her as the one who brought the knife to a fistfight. We disagree on matters of principle here. I won't hold you in low regard for that ... I'm an adult after all. But I will exercise my privilege of writing yet another long post on the topic. And here it is!