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Politics : Libertarian Discussion Forum -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: chalu2 who wrote (3616)	5/13/2000 1:15:00 PM
From: Jim S	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 13062

As I've said numerous times, Chalu, the events after the arrests by the Gestapo are a different story. The horrible pictures you referenced are involved with the "dispositions" (please pardon the euphemism) AFTER the arrests. The Gestapo, under color of law, broke into homes, went in in heavily armed groups, bullied the residents, shot anyone who resisted, wore military clothing and gear, ripped and tore up the property in the homes, and instilled terror in the populace who did not agree with their political views. I don't think they had tear gas or flash-bang grenades. Like the INS, they didn't need a warrant to do this. Do I see a similarity? Yup. Please don't ascribe the horrors after the Nazi's arrests with my analogy. It goes far beyond my intent. But, this horse has been just about beaten to death. Like the links you provided indicate, the Gestapo were able to perform their atrocities only because of the willing aid and assistance of the local populace. Unlike those willing to support the actions of some of our National Law Enforcement agencies, I'd like to think that I'd have the courage to at least speak out against those tactics. As you've indicated in the past, the slippery slope we're on now probably started with the "war on drugs," and now our National Gov't is allowing it to migrate to other agencies as well. For me, I still would like to think the Fourth Amendment has some meaning. I've stated my opinion as clearly as I can, and would rather not beat this dead horse any more. If you'd like the final word, be my guest.

To: chalu2 who wrote (3616)	5/13/2000 2:55:00 PM
From: Daniel W. Koehler	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 13062

Jim S.'s use of the term "Gestapo" is a service to their memory because it may prevent the same thing happening again. I would have thought that you, as someone ostensibly sensitive to the plight of the millions who died in concentration camps, would prefer we NEVER forget the actions of the storm troopers. Maybe you should take your complaint to the History Channel for running the Nazi atrocities over and over. For heaven's sake, it is government that commits mass violence on humanity! Be it King, President, Czar or Third Reich! For only the sovereign has the coercive legal power to do so. By that same token, I am astonished that Jews and others sensitive to the Holocaust are not the biggest 2nd Amendment supporters in this country. If the Jewish population were not disarmed in Germany and Poland, perhaps the Jews could have saved themselves. But, alas, the German Jews trusted their government to do the right thing. I have asked my Jewish friends this very 2nd amendment question and have yet to have a convincing response. Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it. Your sensitivity to Jim's use of the term Gestapo is an emotional response and wrongheaded. If you don't see the germ of the same state violence against its citizens here, then you are not being honest, IMO. So, please, spare us on this thread at least the apologia for the altruism of government and stop wearing your PC feelings on your sleeve. Daniel