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Strategies & Market Trends : The Millennium Crash -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Arik T.G. who wrote (5337)6/12/2000 9:05:00 AM
From: LLCF  Respond to of 5676
 
<So the question is one of values. When society values economically measured success over mental and emotional success, I believe it sows the seeds of its own destruction.
On the bright side, I believe that this set of values will soon change, and the importance of economical success will diminish in the future.>

I agree, and certainly hope so for #2.

<Back to the marriage issue- I believe that the rate of success is so low because the maintenance and success of marriage is not prioritized. People prefer to invest their time and efforts at work over their families and the outcome is obvious. This is a moral choice. One should consider it carefully. If economical success is more important to one then marital success, then one should divert one's resources to work. If, however, one's family is more important to one, then one should put one's best efforts there. I think people know that, and make their choices accordingly. The low rate of marital success only shows us what they think is
more important. >

Well said... my point was that often the economic choice as historically been made by the male who works his ass off to make partner, and I therefore was not about to blame females who 'go it alone' as a choice over the former. Overall you post in indisputable IMO.

FWIW there is now good data out showing that daycare as a choice over 'mom@home' has real costs [although I take this at face value from a psychologist friend, I don't know the studies done... still probably a 'duhh, no kidding' anyway] carried by the children. You won't find that in the "annual family income" statistics.

DAK



To: Arik T.G. who wrote (5337)6/12/2000 10:19:00 AM
From: flatsville  Respond to of 5676
 
OT--
Arik--

I think it might be helpful to look at a more homogenous traditional society which is experiencing later in life marriages, decreased fertility and and increasing divorce rate.

These two articles regarding the Japanese are interesting.

www2.gol.com

jil.go.jp

Notice what is happening here. Japanese women, women who don't necessarily expect to be "happy" in a marriage--

A survey of new brides reported that only 12% expected their marriage to be happy.24 There is an old Japanese saying, "Kekkon wa josei no hakaba de oru" which translates as "marriage is a women's grave."25 One author noted that "Japanese still regard marriage not as the culmination of a romance but as a commitment that is primarily social and practical in significance."26

--and have a very clear view of the social responsibilities at issue are saying "screw it" in ever increasing numbers.

Note:

"Divorce is no longer concentrated in the initial period of marriage, and the presence of children has lost its genuine power to prevent couples from terminating marriage. Although payment of the expenses of bringing up children cannot be expected to a great extent from ex-husbands, a majority of divorce petitions come from women. The fact that middle-aged women initiate divorce despite the presence of children indicates the signicant changes in women's life circumstances. With increased economic opportunities and independence, women no longe are forced to endure unwanted marital relationships due to dependence on male breadwinners. Expanded work opportunities give women a greater range of family choices.

IOW women with little hope of receiving child support as we know it are bailing.

Arik, perhaps it's not a moral choice, but a survivial choice for many women...now that they have the opportunity of choice.

>>>Back to the marriage issue- I believe that the rate of success is so low because the maintenance and success of marriage is not prioritized. People prefer to invest their time and efforts at work over their families and the outcome is obvious. This is a moral choice.<<<

I think if money were the only consideration Japanese women would be racing to the altar to set up dual income households and married women with children would be reluctant to initiate divorce proceedings as they generally fare worse following dissolution of the marriage.

But it's not happening that way.

Maybe it has something to do with this?

>>>Women who postpone marriage to their to their 30's are most likely to be pursuing careers. Being single for them can be understood as resulting from the choice typically between marriage and work. Marriage is more costly for women than men because they are called upon to reconcile the competing demands of work and family responsibilities whereas men have come to rely on their wives to take primary responsibility for family obligations, freeing them from family chores. Men's expectations toward marriage have changed little, but women are more ambivalent to marriage in the present society which is organized upon a rigid gender division of labor. This is especially so for women who do not want to be conned to family raising throughout their lives. Once they withdraw from the workplace due to childbearing and rearing, they have little opportunity to resume their careers and are compelled to take low paying, unchallenging part-time jobs that accomodate their family schedules. Women see more constraints in marriage than men, given the present societal organization.<<<

Not so very different than the U.S. experience.



To: Arik T.G. who wrote (5337)6/13/2000 11:27:00 PM
From: onurbius  Respond to of 5676
 
OT <Back to the marriage issue- I believe that the rate of success is so low because the maintenance and success of marriage is not prioritized. People prefer to invest their time and efforts at work over their families and the outcome is obvious.>

Projection of negative outcomes finds the mate as the surefire target. "If only Mr./Ms./Boss/Coworker/Vendor/Employee/Parents/XYZ Problem/...were out of my life then I could truly flourish. Actually, it must be you, mine spouse, who is the problem. Therefor, if I eliminate the spouse, I eliminate all of the problems standing in my way." NOT. The spiritual secret is that I am the problem, not Them.



To: Arik T.G. who wrote (5337)6/14/2000 12:59:00 AM
From: yard_man  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 5676
 
How do you know this?

>>We are not designed to fly a jet plane or even drive a car. <<

>>Back to the marriage issue- I believe that the rate of success is so low because the maintenance and success of marriage is not prioritized. People prefer to invest their time and efforts at work over their families and the outcome is obvious. This is a moral choice. One should consider it carefully. If economical success is more important to one then marital success, then one should divert one's resources to work. If, however, one's family is more important to one, then one should put one's best efforts there.
I think people know that, and make their choices accordingly. The low rate of marital success only shows us what they think is more important. <<

I agree, except for many the choice is never a conscious one. No-one wakes up and says, "Hey, you know -- my job is a lot more important to me than my wife ..." Therein lies the problem (assuming that a failed marriage is considered to be a problem).