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To: Chris land who wrote (30479)6/28/2000 11:34:00 PM
From: Alan Markoff  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 39621
 
Chris,
It was also Jesus that saw a widow woman that lost her son and was in despair at his funeral. He walked up to her and filled with compassion stopped the procession and touched her son and he sat up and Jesus handed him to her. He did not reveal that her faith was appropriate so he could have compassion on her.
The accounts you have quoted need a background on who he was talking to and why he said what he did to understand it. You pull it out to try to make the Lord look cold and insensitive to match your own predicament.
I do think you may have not realized how harsh you came across but telling people that would help.
Nancy



To: Chris land who wrote (30479)6/29/2000 12:46:00 AM
From: haqihana  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
Chris,
Jesus had every right to say what he did, but he was God incarnate. Is that, really, what you think you are?? That is how you are acting, and speaking. You ARE NOT GOD, OR JESUS CHRIST. If you continue to usurp their positions in Christianity, you should know exactly where you will end up.
IMO, you have become a disgrace to the Faith of Christians every where. You behave like a bigoted puritan, like the ones that falsly accused, and burned, women at the stake as witches. ~H~



To: Chris land who wrote (30479)6/29/2000 4:19:00 PM
From: Thomas C. White  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 39621
 
Mark, you think it's my version?...At one time people came up to Jesus mourning, gasping, weeping, falling all over themselves and lamenting about how Pilate had mingled the sacrifices with the blood of some Galileans. Oh what a pity party that was, I'll bet they were expecting Jesus to side with them.!!!

Apparently it really is your version Chris, this is just misrepresentation of the Scriptures. Let's have a look:

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2. And Jesus, answering, said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3. I tell you, Nay; but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5. I tell you, Nay; but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Where's all this mourning and gasping and lamenting coming from?? Basically, what happened is that people told Christ about the Galilleans (these may or may not have been followers of Judas of Galillee, Jews who preached not paying tribute to Rome, which did not sit well with Pilate) who were set upon and slaughtered while they were making sacrificial offerings (thus their blood was "mingled" with their sacrifices). The issue is a theological one, generally construed to be, did their horrible and untimely death at the hands of the Romans imply that they were sinners, and that God was taking vengeance upon them? Basically, this is a common theme in the Old Testament, where various evil people meet various horrible and untimely deaths, and where it could be consequently be construed that, if someone met a horrible and early death, then perhaps it meant that God had judged him evil and was exacting vengeance.

Christ refutes this concept, saying more or less, "do you think that these were maybe the greatest sinners of all the Galilleans, because this horrible thing happened to them? I tell you no, but, if you don't repent, your fate will be the same. And then there were those eighteen people that the tower in Siloam fell down on top of. Do you think that they were therefore the greatest sinners in all Jerusalem, just because they were crushed to death? I tell you no, but if you don't repent, your fate will be the same." Christ is not saying that if you do not repent, you will be slaughtered or crushed by falling buildings, he is obviously saying this in a figurative sense.

Now let's look at the other example you cited. I'll use the Luke instead of Matthew because I think it is more illustrative.

9:57 Now it happened as they journeyed on the road, that someone said to Him, "Lord, I will follow You wherever You go." 9:58 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." 9:59 Then He said to another, "Follow Me." But he said, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father." 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God." 9:61 And another also said, "Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house." 9:62 But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

This is not a case of Christ being somehow lacking in compassion or being overly stern. In fact, one could say the reverse is true. In the above context, he is only realistically telling followers what the requirements for discipleship are, at a very critical juncture. Christ may have well sized up the two people making excuses for not following him immediately as somehow wavering. One says, I want to go, but let me go tend to this first, the other says, let me go tend to that first. In the case of the one asking to bury his father, Jewish funerary customs of the time mandated an extended period of closeted mourning. So it would be very likely that the son would be entangled in the customs of burial, perhaps for days, while in the meantime Christ was already on his way to Jerusalem. A good excuse for the son to blow off the whole thing (in saying "Let the dead bury their own dead," it is often thought Christ meant let the spiritually dead do it, that is, the rest of the family and friends who were not followers of Christ).

Christ also knew that someone going to his family to say goodbye might well be dissuaded, whether by his own longing to stay, or perhaps by the entreaties of his family not to follow Christ, whom they might have considered to be just another messianic crackpot. Christ knew that procrastinators and waverers would not fare well; in fact, what with his heading for Jerusalem and the terrible hardship of persecution and death he probably sensed awaited him, I think he was just saying, look, you really have to be totally and completely ready for this, without hesitation, ready to walk away from everything else, from family and friends, or else don't bother.

There is also a nice paper on this subject that presents some other interesting ideas below, from a conference at Abilene Christian University several years ago:

christianscholars.acu.edu