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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Chris land who wrote (84653)	8/2/2000 11:02:07 PM
From: Frederick Smart	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Hello Chris.... >>Those who die rejecting God can expect nothing but fear and judgement. Those that I know who have lived for the LORD had such amazing tranquility when they died that you would think they were going off to a long awaited reunion! Chris>> These guys were making fun of you. Glad to see you contribute. If a man is happy and joyful while walking down the street, he'll naturally want to smile, acknowlege and help anyone he runs into. And when others make eye contact with him, he'll shine with all the brightness of a sunny day. Then there are some individuals who have a hard time making eye contact with others. The happiness and joy that comes from radiating light from within has a brightness that can startle those who are facing darkness. When we face darkness, any light is energy to be possessed/taken/consumed/controlled. When we face and live in the world from a perspective of darkness all light and energy looks finite, limited, scarce, restricted, etc. Where all of us trip up is that we kill ourselves and others with the pain and guilt we feel when we live from away from this perspective of light and love. We aren't "bad" or "wrong" when we face darkness. We are just reaching out for someone, something, somewhere, sometime for answers. And all that while, those answers are within us. Just a humble, risk and service oriented knocking with a good dose of faith and belief is all that's needed to turn the tide. Peace. ...........

To: Chris land who wrote (84653)	8/2/2000 11:59:57 PM
From: cosmicforce	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 108807

Those who die rejecting God can expect nothing but fear and judgement. Those that I know who have lived for the LORD had such amazing tranquility when they died that you would think they were going off to a long awaited reunion! Let's not assume your statements are true. That is "begging the question". It is a classic problem in debate because it is illogical. You can prove anything if you assume your proposition is true. For example, I'm being told by the Pink Space Bunny that you are damned. You are damned because the Pink Space Bunny said so... and so on. It doesn't go anywhere. I won't even address how you could possibly know the state of mind of anyone when they died so I'm going to leave that one for later. We can debate that point after the first. Instead, support your proposition with objective fact that all can independently verify at each step and, organize your statements in such a way that they adhere to the set rules of logic. Explain to us, if you would, a) how would a neutral party becomes convinced of your proposition through objective facts and b) prove that you're aren't being deceived by another force {call it Satan, if that works for you). Thanks. Oh, BTW, you can't use circular reasoning, e.g., "God said so through his enlightened works, such as the Bible, therefore you must believe it". That is still begging the question. You must first demonstrate that there is a [gG]od and [hH]e/[sS]he/[iI]t cares a rat's ass what you or I believe. I'm not an atheist, but some kind of pagan, I think. I admit that my pagan thoughts are a belief system and not a provable fact, so therefore, while I can offer my opinion about our ontological, it is only that, an opinion, and is not based upon subject fact. My opinion remains unprovable. I promise I will not present my opinion as fact, e.g., "I am a pagan. Only [pP]agans go to [hH]eaven. You are not a [pP]agan. You will not go to [hH]eaven." I will further offer that you can't prove a) or b) without first bypassing reason and resorting to faith (also stated as "trust me" or "because I said so").

To: Chris land who wrote (84653)	8/3/2000 12:13:53 AM
From: epicure	Respond to of 108807

> 42"He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, `I am the Son of God.'" 44 In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him. 45 From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" < Jesus had more faith than most people, and yet it seems he too knew fear after being tortured and crucified. He didn't meet the end bravely. It appears he was AFRAID his FATHER had forgotten him as he died. But I don't blame him for that, I don't expect that much of people. If they want to whimper and be angry about being tortured to death, that's ok with me. I don't think I can judge that. If people have doubts when they are in pain and facing the end of life as they have know it, I don't think I can judge how much fear they should feel. I can't even be SURE my relatives were afraid, but they looked afraid. And I was certainly afraid for them. Afraid of their pain, afraid of never being able to speak to them again, afraid that I had not taken full advantage of showing them my love. If you knew people who had easy deaths- good for them. The people I knew suffered, and were wracked with pain. My grandmother believed in God quite strongly, my father didn't. I didn't see a lot of difference in their deaths- except my father cried less. Shall I interpret that to mean that Christians are weepy at the end and agnostics are more stoic? I think not. They faced the end, neither of them could know for certain what was ahead, they left their loved ones on this Earth behind and departed their existence as I knew them, for places unknown. A voyage of any kind has a measure of fear, anything can happen, even a weekend trip to the country- the final voyage- well- who knows? When you make it Chris- I hope you meet the God you deserve.