To: Tom Clarke who wrote (16996 ) 8/31/2000 4:22:06 AM From: GUSTAVE JAEGER Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 17770 That's quite an open-ended innuendo of yours: "more civilized Latin Europe etc." I don't think that a country is more civilized than another, just as a living organism can't be more "alive" than another.... Either it's alive or dead, there's no in-between! Of course, French statesman Clemenceau once said that "the US is the only country that went directly from barbarity to decadence without the détour through culture..." But what's culture and what's civilization in the first place? I don't think that a French redneck is more civilized than a Yankee hick.... In these matters, most people behave like members of a middle-class family whose one of their uncles is a world-famous writer or scientist or whatever. Although the achievements of that brilliant uncle should be considered as a strictly personal reward, the other family members self-delusively take credit from them for themselves --although they're all a bunch of no-gooders.... Get the picture? Anyway, I think I've already addressed that issue in my post #16773 on this thread:Message 14023908 The reason why hooliganism is thriving in the UK and Germany lies in the obsolete Weltanschauung of the British and German elites.... German youth have been raised, even well after WWII, in the Deutschland-über-Alles myth: German workers have constantly been praised for their allegedly high productivity (regardless of the fact that the German workforce pulls the fattest paycheck in the world). So, in that kind of society, if you're some Turkish hobo on the dole, it just doesn't matter.... The American-turned-German Dream for you is to scramble to open a groceryshop or something. Conversely, if you're a genuine, 100%-bratwurst, ledenhosen-wearing, German boy who doesn't make it then... boy, You're Germany's shame! You ought to be part of corporate Germany and participate in the manufacturing of BMWs, Mercedes, Trumpf heavy machinery, Thyssen iron I-beams, Siemens electronics gear, etc, etc. Again, the anti-climax between the elite-imposed expectations and the youth's gloomy daily life is too strong. Same with the UK, except that the Brits are a much more classist society --they've only abolished the hereditary tenure in the House of Lords in 1998(?). British youth witness a world that is predominantly ruled by an English-speaking global elite --finance, technologies, computers, showbiz, pop stars, Hollywood, are all Anglo-Saxon turfs. Then they hear about the so-called American Dream and eventually they watch on TV their remote Australian cousins surfing and playing along white-sand beaches.... And then they suddenly glimpse their own wrecked mugs in the mirror: why are they not part of that great Anglo-Saxon magic circus? Why are they just like those dark-skinned bums messing around in South London?