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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Greg or e who wrote (1079)	9/26/2000 1:58:35 PM
From: cosmicforce	Respond to of 28931

Greg, more than one time I know I've said that I believe I know only one thing, "I think, there for I am". Everything else is a belief based upon one principle: "logic and reason takes you farther than belief". In the realm of the unknowable, all beliefs are equal. HOWEVER, with that said, there are fewer undemonstrable tenets in my belief, and therefore it is simply less likely to fail like most things made of only a few parts. Just like the fork you use at dinner is less likely to fail than your car. It is for exactly the same reasons. Complexity introduces frailty. Your belief consists of so many presumptions. 1) there is a God 2) that God cares what we believe, 3) there is only one truth, 4) the Bible is the only source of that truth, 5) those who don't believe 1-4 exactly as you do are wrong. If any one of your principles is wrong they all fail. So the minimum things that must work for you is 5 complicated things. The minimum that works for me is 1 simple thing. You only have one target to attack humanism -- "things can be known by reason." You don't balance your check book by using Scripture. You don't drive your car using Scripture. In fact in more than 90% of the things you do in life are based upon logic and reason. You save 10% for belief. That's cool, but recognize that to everyone else that it's neither logical or reasonable, nor based upon facts that can be verified by others. You chose to answer life's most important question without using the intellect and reason you have in your brain (that you already use for 90% of your life successfully.) That's all there is to it. You don't want to discover truth because you are convinced that you know it and will discard everything that doesn't agree with your idea of truth. It's like you're at a feast, over in the corner with your bowl of gruel, and you tell all of us at the table we should be eating gruel. We will die if we don't eat gruel. Well, I for one, don't buy it. If God came down tomorrow and demonstrated to me beyond any reasonable doubt that I must believe, I would. If that same God came down and said, "You know, Greg, those secular humanists are right about the Bible being the works of men." you would spit in His or Her face and call Him or Her the Anti-Christ. That is the key difference. My mind isn't made up, your's is. Enjoy your belief!! And have a really, really, really, nice day.

To: Greg or e who wrote (1079)	9/26/2000 2:27:10 PM
From: epicure	Respond to of 28931

eeeek- why did it post twice?

To: Greg or e who wrote (1079)	9/26/2000 2:34:33 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 28931

There are pictures of the holocaust, there is the testament of actual witnesses. The testament of witnesses is always a Good Thing (to quote Martha). ] The problem we have (or at least that I have) is not with belief- it is with ABSOLUTE belief. I believe all sorts of things. I believe I'll go take a pee in a minute. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. I believe that being kind is a good thing. I believe if I do good in the world I will be happy. I believe reason leads me to peace. But I wouldn't kill anyone to prove any of those things. I probably wouldn't even yell at anyone to prove any of those things- (and my logic tells me that by even attempting to stridently convince someone that my path is the "good" path I have done wrong). I believe that scholarship and doubt are jewels to be treasured. I believe that whatever religion embraces science and knowledge and doubt is a good religion, and a religion that embraces ignorance and denial is a bad religion- but again, that is my relative belief. I wouldn't expect you to believe it. Nor would I expect you to accept reason- I think you should be absolutely free to be as unreasonable as you wish to be, which you apparently are.

To: Greg or e who wrote (1079)	9/26/2000 8:45:10 PM
From: Solon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 28931

I think you are being overly sensitive, Greg. Think about how the pickerel feels. You have correctly (good for you) touched on a problem that philosophers have tried to get around from time immemorial: Regardless of the philosophical systems put together, they must all, ultimately, assume the truth of a first principle. So far, nobody has found a way around this. Having assumed a first principle, however, it has been found that the philosophy of logic has enabled humankind to understand the universe in which we live. We have found pragmatic benefit from accepting reason as a guide to staying alive, and as a guiding principle to the quality of that life. It has worked as the engine of wonderful achievements in every field of human endeavor. By contrast, superstition and irrationality have always been capricious destroyers that have justified everything from human sacrifices, to punishment of innocents, to Nazi death camps. If you wish to believe in a miraculous world that does not require reason, please do so. Just be aware that it will not secure your food supply, it will not cure your family of sickness and disease, it will not give you clothes to wear, or toys to play with, or cars to drive. It will not free you from the dangers of earth, and it will not lead you humbly into the stars. Nor will it provide a moral code for your protection in society, other than one that is ephemeral, and dependent upon the mercurial winds of subjectivity and might. The history of religion demonstrates this in the most poignant way. You have a right to believe in your God, Greg, and I think that most people on this thread have confirmed their understanding of that. So--does it bother you that other people have different opinions? Does it bother you that Muslims exist, that Hindus exist, that Sikhs exist, that Buddhists exist, that agnostics exist, that humanists exist?? If you consent to their right to exist, then will you not also consent to their right to think, and to believe as their autonomy dictates?? We on this thread are not against Christians. We are against extremism and fanaticism--where it intrudes on the right to life, that all individuals enjoy, and where it is a threat to the peaceful advancement of humankind. I can say much good about individuals from any social collective. Truthfully, I have tremendous admiration for much that has been done by Jews, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, etc. If you will check the Nobel Laureates, you will recognize, also,how humanists, atheists, agnostics, and others have improved the quality of your life, and have protected your freedom to think. You happen to be on a thread that the introduction clearly shows is not a love-in for people of extreme religious views. Nevertheless, you have been welcomed to your say here: Welcomed by people that know they can always learn from anyone because, we do not have the truth, we merely seek it. You should not be surprised, though, on a thread that asks the question: "Should God be replaced", to find that your ideas are often anathema to the thread consensus. Now go fry that fish...