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To: CharlieChina who wrote (192)	10/3/2000 3:00:45 PM
From: Lola	Respond to of 8925

How do you know the manipulators are off shore and if they are screwing traders who trade based on TA doesn't that mean you're getting screwed too since you are a technical trader? Or are you smarter than everybody else? I knew my dart board method had some advantages. <ggg> Lola:)

To: CharlieChina who wrote (192)	10/3/2000 4:19:37 PM
From: TraderAlan	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 8925

Nicholas, False breakouts, breakdowns, whipsaws, bull traps, bear traps, etc have always been part of TA. Common chart setups are like any other market inefficiency, i.e. when the "crowd" discovers them, the popularity forces too much dumb money onto one side of the trade and closes the system inefficiency that allowed easy profit from the setup in the first place. But this still doesn't reduce the value of TA. Smart traders, whether they use TA, the tape or even fundamentals adjust their tactics ahead of, behind or against the crowd to take advantage of the new inefficiency that the mass participation creates. There are also two limitations to manipulation: first, it tends to be time-frame and strategy specific. So traders can quickly adapt by adjusting their holding period (and the related charts they use to make decisions) and methodology if a strategy stops performing as expected. Second, manipulation can bend but not break the TA. Tools like candlesticks filter out a lot of market noise so that the underlying primary direction becomes clear. Here's an example: everyone is learning Fibonacci. So there's a tendency by the unwashed TA types to jump in right at a 62% retracement. But one of the best trades these days is to lag the crowd at those levels, let them get shaken out with a whipsaw down to 70-75% and enter the trade as soon as the market jumps back across the 62% support line. As a rule, shakeouts can only burn one side of the market at a time. The move to 75% cleans out the "crowd" and allows the underlying market direction to reassume control. Alan

To: CharlieChina who wrote (192)	10/3/2000 4:24:12 PM
From: Teresa Lo	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 8925

"...the Screen Painters .... these are organizations set up with a tremendous amount of capital in offshore venues who are designing and building program trading systems that manipulate price and volume that specifically triggers the buy or sell models of the people using TA" That may well be, but the Screen Painters will still cause price and volume to dance across the tape, giving us evidence of their handiwork. Most of the people that are supposedly "getting fooled into buying and selling stocks each day because they are using TA", in my opinion, use all the common TA techniques, ones that don't "work" in the market. For example, the breakout of the first hour's range. Or the breakout, period. The leave their stop orders in all the obvious places and this acts as a magnet as well. I get so many questions from people wanting to trade breakouts, it's unbelievable, but how many people want to know about "traps", where traders are lured and then slaughtered? Excellent example today: What about the tippy top of this big wedge that formed on the SP futures today? That little poke at the top, right at the announcement of the FOMC decision, was a great spot to get short. We were not fooled. We had been watching this build in real time all day, and I even went out for an hour before the announcement to get some air and eat lunch, knowing that this was the likely "program". We made 100 points on the corresponding NQ chart. ispeculator.com Teresa

To: CharlieChina who wrote (192)	10/5/2000 11:26:53 AM
From: Chip McVickar	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 8925

Nicholas, <<the Screen Painters .... these are organizations set up with a tremendous amount of capital in offshore venues who are designing and building program trading systems that manipulate price and volume that specificaly triggers the buy or sell models of the people using TA.>> Very Interesting...! Is there any written material that expounds on his statement..? I've never heard of this before and would like to understand these characters. Some how this seems unlikely..? Chip