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Politics : Al Gore vs George Bush: the moderate's perspective -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: epicure who wrote (3316)10/20/2000 10:12:54 PM
From: cosmicforce  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 10042
 
Yup. Couldn't agree more. The first people from the bubble of Boomers will be 65 in 2010 or so. The piper will have to be paid. Those who can retire now are going to start as we speak: there are probably early boomers going on early retirement right now.

There was a Econ Prof from Washington University, St. Louis on NPR talking about how deficits aren't that bad. His thesis : depends upon what you fund with it and that the Reagan and later deficits were investments in the economy. This is an argument that a pyramid scheme doesn't hurt the early players. True enough, but the more layers that aren't hurt, the worse the hurt eventually will be. If we can barely balance the budget now, how is it going to happen when people's net worth goes lower in a recession. Since stocks don't pay dividends much anymore, there is a real problem maintaining income without selling assets when they are at lows.



To: epicure who wrote (3316)10/20/2000 11:34:13 PM
From: Lino...  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 10042
 
I would like to counter a few of your observations and preferences:

I will go through my reasons for leaning toward the Democrats: I like public education, I am totally against vouchers- in our huge multicultural society one of the few places where we are forced to come together and learn how to relate to each other, is in the public schools.

Unfortunately, public schools expose the student population to bad influence as well as good influence. A principle in a public high school told me that they do not teach right from wrong, only that there are choices and not to prejudge a choice. I would prefer a better display of leadership than that.

I want public money to be focused on the public schools- so that they will be places where the majority of our citizens become well educated with their fellow citizens of every race, religion, and socioeconomic group.

Unfortunately, if the quality of education in a particular school or district is of poor quality, then it is equally poor for everyone.

I accept that not everyone wishes to be publicly educated- but we must make a value judgment with public money, and in my opinion it should be spent on institutions that bring all people together, not on institutions that encourage separatism.
Seperatism of sorts is in the schools now in the form of class segregation, gang association etc.
I always thought schools were primarily for education, not social manipulation. The value judgement you mention would be "whos" idea of value?
As I understand it, a voucher system would, in effect, force schools to compete with each other to accomplish higher level of education for students. How can this be bad? Even those with low income benefit because they would have the option of taking a child out of a non performing school and enroll that child in a better school. A level playing field based on educational competetiveness is, in my opinion, better for students than one that is dumbed down.

Further, as relates to education, because of the diversity in our culture, no religious instruction should take place in school for ANY religion. All children should be able to come to school with their faith safely tucked inside them. Subject matter in school should be objective and non-sectarian. The theory of evolution should be taught and children should know what theory means. The Christian Jewish Biblical explanation for creation is not appropriate in public schools. There should be no encouragement for prayer in the public schools.

Religion in schools......hmmmmm it's probably not a good idea to teach religion as there are so many, but religion has and is a big part of an awful lot of cultures. Should the history books be rewritten with no mention of religion? It wouldn't be history then, would it? It would become fiction and we see where fiction gets us in a lot of Gores statements.
In British Columbia, a Christian girl was suspended from high school for wearing a cross on a small chain. A few months later the supreme court ruled that Sihks could wear their daggers in the schools because they have "religeous significance" .....hardly a level playing field and hardly a way to discourage seperatism.

I find it hard to comprehend why a public funded school system can have kids, dressed in trench coats, sporting Nazi medallions and carrying ghetto blasters playing music that "preaches" drug use, killing, suicide and such crap should be regulated into forbiding a student from reciting the Lord's prayer.

On the environment, again I lean toward the Democratic view of higher standards for air and water purity, and I would like to see open space preserved, more national parks, more attention to alternative energy sources, etc etc.

Gore has hardly been a saint with playing politics with environmental issues while filling his pockets at the same time. Bush made a valid point when he said that technology has advanced significantly in the handling of emissions and incentives should be offered to entice companies to upgrade to the newest technologies. Alternative energy development has an exciting future and private sector development will continue without Gore. Companies compete with each other to be the first with the best. If you have invested in any of the companies currently developing fuel cell technology, you will know what I mean.
I have worked in the oil exploration industry for close to 35 years now and have witnessed first hand unbelieveable change. There are tight regulations and enforcement. Companies are extremely environmentally conscious and much better corporate citizens than they were a few decades ago.
Most of the fear mongering I see is nothing more than uninformed sensationalism.

Medicare- I don't agree with any political party on this. We are very wasteful (imo) in using the bulk of our health care dollars on the last few months of life. I see no purpose to that. I would like to see patient sufferring minimized but I do not like to think my tax dollars are going to heroic measures for people who are critically ill and have no hope of recovery. I would like to see medicare reformed- and see it offer a great deal more in the way of preventive medicine and less in the way of heroic measures.

This a tough one....hits close to home for most people. As a Canadian there is one thing I know for sure.....the US does not need a sytem that mimics ours. The misconception that our system is "free" is stupid one. It is state run, state controled, inefficent and low quality.
People die on waiting lists here. Kemo for Prostrate cancer can take 3 to 4 months to start. Up to 16 weeks for hip replacement surgery. You get the picture.
What is important I think, is to somehow get level heads to work on an answer. Fear mongering and politicing only sells newspapers, nothing more.

Internationally I do not agree to involving the US overseas except where international borders are at issue- and where the issues are clearly defines and our national interest is at stake- so according to the league I would lean toward the Republicans on this. I do not think free trade is a very good way to go when the rest of the world is not playing by that rule. I am truly worried about the vast outflow of cash to China- we have a severe imbalance there and it worries me. Of course since I am sort of anti- free trade this again causes me to lean toward the Democrats.

As Canadians, we live under the hypocritical umbrella of American protectionism, while our liberal government criticizes the US at every opportunity. Personally, I am thankful for the leadership the US has shown in defending freedom and democracy.
Free trade, I think is good in more ways than not, but could use improvement. Govt subsidies should be eliminated and trade refused with countries that subsidise their industries to give them competetive advantage. I truly believe that govt is necessary, but too much of it in most cases is a deterent to progress.

Social Security- you shouldn't get it if you don't need it, but you should get your money back. Social Security should kick in at a later age- when it was first proposed the median age of death was very close to 65. Of course the median age of death has been pushed back- so the age to collect social security must be also- 70 at the very least. No one wants to do this. I can't blame them- those seniors are powerful. They are a lot more powerful, for example, than children- who have no lobby- so the old folks get a lot of benefits- but is that sensible? I would argue no. It is the young on whose shoulders all those old people will be standing. Those kids will need to work darned hard to put enough money into the pot to keep the older folks checks rolling in- since we all know there is not stash of cash for these programs.

You have things a bit backwards here....The elderly have been paying into Social Security and should be entitled to reap the benefits of their labors. Perhaps if the money had been invested at more than a 2% return, you wouldn't be so selfish with it. We have no qualm about leaving mountainous debt to our descendants....perhaps it would be poetic justice if they pulled the plug on our retirement "security". Liberals seem to favor all sorts of "programs" for the weak, the poor, the underpriveledged, our youth. We have govt programs to "help" every special group immagineable and probably some that even the wildest immagination would have trouble comprehending...why not offer dignity to unfortunate elderly?

I am prochoice, and so again that forces me toward the Democrats

Prochoice is OK if it's educated prochoice. I believe we covered that in an earlier discussion.

I also believe strongly that leaders should lead by example...that makes character a strong point. Youth should have leadership they can look up to. Honesty is a quality that a leader MUST possess if he is to be credible and taken seriously. Anything short of that is an unacceptable influence on our youth.

There are those that say we should not be influencing our youth with our own morals, but judging from some of the things our youth is inflicted with it seems very damaging not to.



To: epicure who wrote (3316)10/21/2000 1:40:10 AM
From: fuzzymath  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 10042
 
A couple of points. You've obviously thought a lot about the issues.

On education: vouchers are primarily about public schools competing and diversifying to improve themselves. Parents would have the right to select whichever school they wanted their children to go to, including all public schools, if their child was in a bad situation, under the Bush plan. Having children myself, I find it appalling that we don't already have this choice for our children. We pay the taxes, we should be able to choose what's best for our children. The federal vouchers will not pay for a private school education. All that will happen in the vast majority of cases is that the public schools that really care about providing high quality education will find children flocking to them -- and the vouchers will help them afford to find a way to expand their facilities to meet the growing demand for their services.

Environment is difficult -- I agree with you, but it also hurts my children if I have to spend outrageous prices for energy and have less money to spend on things I want to give to them.

On social security, the current system only works if the population of young people is much bigger than the population of old people. That's not the case now. Our young people cannot be expected to pay 15 or 20% social security taxes 20 years from now to give the Baby Boomers (like me) their due. The system has to be changed. Gore does not propose any change whatsoever. He just pushes the problem into the future, raising social security taxes by using funds from general income tax receipts as time goes on.

Please comment on these points! I find your commentary very thoughtful, but I believe the Bush view provides the better solutions overall.

Kevin/fuzzymath



To: epicure who wrote (3316)10/21/2000 10:19:24 AM
From: Rambi  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 10042
 
Lat night I saw only the post about soft money, and missed the LWV's overview on the large issues completely! WAtched a movie and fell asleep- another exciting night at the Rambi house. SO here goes--

International:
I am the most unequipped person imaginable to have an opinion on free trade, so I defer to others on this. On the surface, what you say about everyone playing by the same rules sounds logical, but I just have no economic background and am not qualified to make an intelligent decision.
While I believe we should respond to humanitarian needs (food and medicine), I am opposed to military intervention unless national interests are threatened. I am not
convinced that countries warring for thousands of years, particularly over religious issues, are worth any loss of US life and I don’t trust Washington to make anything but
politically motivated decisions anyway. This may reflect my being from the Vietnam generation and also as you know, having two sons of draftable age, although I have
always felt this way.
I have very mixed feelings about the UN also, but am opposed to our troops being under any command but our own.

Education:
Actually, this summary by the LWV seems inaccurate. From what Bush has said, Republicans demand MORE accountability than the Democrats in terms of a meeting a national standard. Gore does not ask much in the way of testing standards where Bush has asked for yearly testing and a national reading program. However, HOW these standards are met is up to local control. (And I am for this.)

I think the issue of the voucher system has been overemphasized and should not be dismissed as a possibility without proof that it will fail or that it will have the result you fear. The schools as they are now do NOT encourage acceptance and universality. While I agree with
your dream of schools being “places where the majority of our citizens become well educated with their fellow citizens of every race, religion, and socioeconomic group”,
this isn’t happening under our system as it is today. In fact, my children were probably exposed to more diversity in their small private school, ethnically and religiously, than they were in the large Dallas public school they briefly attended. I'll go further and say that I didn’t WANT my children exposed to the kind of “diversity” Dallas public schools offered, which is why we pulled them. We would have sacrificed our children's education as we believed it should be.
In smaller communities with a good proportion of professional families and involved parents, where the schools have a more balanced population, I think you will find less (probably no) demand for vouchers. But in the large, urban systems, which are heavily minority and where many lack the necessary basic language and social skills for starting school, there is an alarming lack of diversity and a terrible price to be paid by the children who are ready, and are forced to sit bored and unchallenged.

I am STRONGLY opposed to religion being taught in public schools. You and I are in full agreement there. (although I think music is the one area we should not ban religious content)

Environment:
Hmm- my problem with this is that I think Al Gore is an extremist and I don’t trust him on this issue. I think I must fall sort of in the middle of the parties on this. I think we should protect national lands, but the story of the federal government unilaterally taking lands without making any effort to work with the state involved alarmed me. I am a big believer in State rights.

Social Security:
I don't think Gore has addressed the real problems in this program. I have to trust that what the Republicans are saying about the money being sufficient to meet demand if their plan is put into effect. Returning some control to the individual is an extension of my basic belief that we need to take personal responsibility for our own futures. If we choose to do that and screw up, though, we forfeit our right to that particular portion of SS. We can’t come back and cry foul. I do not believe that if I don’t need social security at retirement I should not get it. This is just another way of punishing those who have worked very hard, been practical with their money, and planned for their futures.
We qualify for nothing under any of Gore's programs.

Medicare:
I think I’ll join you on this one. Many insurance programs don’t cover preventive procedures such as colonoscopies, mammograms, pap smears so that people don’t get the
check-ups they should, and run the risk not only of not catching problems early, but of huge medical costs in the future.
We pay a lot for insurance so that we don’t have to use an HMO and so that we can choose our physicians. I am opposed to a national health plan and feel that Gore tried to
soft-pedal his position on this, but that he really believes that’s the right way to go.

I, too, am pro-choice and realize that I am taking a chance on the appointments a Republican president might make to the Supreme Court. However, I think that there will be enough outcry about these appointments and their position on this issue, that it will mitigate drastic choices. I thought Gore’s response that he would NOT use a litmus test,
but that he would NOT appoint anyone who would vote against Roe (which of course IS a litmus test) was an indication of mealymouthing hypocrisy and I just can’t trust the guy.



To: epicure who wrote (3316)10/21/2000 10:36:24 AM
From: Rambi  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 10042
 
I apologize-- just reread my last sentence and realize that it was a personal reaction to Gore, and shouldn't have been verbalized!