To: KymarFye who wrote (61658 ) 10/31/2000 4:17:02 PM From: ahhaha Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 99985 The "expected negative return" that you describe can be understood in a number of different ways, but you'd have to explain the particular origin and basis of your calculation for us to discuss it meaningfully. Not true and the calculation is well-known. It's the sum of the product of possible circumstances and their respective probabilities. It can can only be understood in one way and that way is what is I just gave. On the surface, it merely corresponds to the "fresh loser" theory, which holds that the majority of traders lose, but whose results can be attributed to the failings of some or most traders (especially beginners, of course) rather than to the inherent inadequacy of the theories they may attempt to put into practice. This is the second class sucker's attempt to escape the consequences of the expected return. Re-definition won't wash its implications away. All traders will lose over a sufficiently long period of time. Each individual will move towards the expected return which is negative. To get a positive expected return you can't trade. You have to hold. In every period some traders are outliers of the distribution and they look at themselves as though they have special skill, but they don't. They just happened to be outliers in that period. In due time the laws of the universe pull them kicking and screaming to ruin.No offense intended, but in other regards your reasoning seems rather fuzzy, and your statements seem at the very least inconsistent, if not quite random. I can make rigorous everything I state beyond your ability to comprehend. At times you seem to be arguing for an absolutist belief in the hopeless randomness of the markets - imputing to the latter a total insusceptibility to probabilistic analysis (based on chart-reading or any other method that I suppose you would term "a posteriori" analysis). In your response to Grace Zaccardi you likewise assert "no causal" link between any basis for prediction and actual results. When you switch to fudgy phrases like "SIMILAR [my emphasis] to a random walk," however, you're back into an intelligibility and therefore a potential predictability paradigm. If you start out with a wrong understanding of formal academic terms like "random walk", you will never be able to see how they totally apply and that they don't imply what the suckers think they do. The problem is that these terms are formal. That means mathematical. How many traders know stochastic differential equations? On other days, you have seemed to be asserting, with apparent complete self-confidence, a different perspective, as in your post which seemed to describe a belief in a prevalent, predictable price pattern (a "pervasive" consolidation count - When in Rome one must talk like the Romans even if you think they're a collection of illiterate fools. That's what interaction requires. Sometimes I do that and sometimes I admit the truth. It depends on the what is most entertaining to me.On that note, I think it should also be pointed out that, contrary to your earlier statements, the daily charts of the Dow in August 1982 do not show what I believe a responsible chartist would call a "confirmed" downside breakout. I was quoting Joe Granville. It was confirmed via his OBV. I don't use such nonsensical measures. I let the suckers create nice opportunities by their action based on this kind of garbage. They rather show a somewhat rounding bottom on relatively light volume (i.e., non-confirmation), followed, probably as a result or at least a co-result of the Fed intervention and quite possibly some of the other CAUSES that you mention, by a succession of very high volume upsurges that, at the time, could accurately have been read (and presumably were successfully traded) as suggesting the probability of a sustainable long-term rally, as of course transpired. You are an amateur and you weren't there, or if you were, you were a beginner sucking eggs. I think you're looking back for your info and practicing quaint revisionism. If you want to find out what happened, you'll have to ask me. I'm the only pro around who is still a stock market operator and who remembers every last detail of the preceding 34 years of stock market history.