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To: IceShark who wrote (32781)	10/31/2000 7:35:46 PM
From: patron_anejo_por_favor	Respond to of 436258

Tomorrow's headlines: prolerbear.tripod.com

To: IceShark who wrote (32781)	10/31/2000 8:04:31 PM
From: pater tenebrarum	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 436258

the tinge of bitterness in your reply is not misplaced at all. we all know the market will do its thing, like it or not...but the mounting circumstantial evidence of manipulation, small and large scale, is truly disturbing. just to counter right away the suspicion that this is somehow just bear resentment, i'm convinced that some downside manips in individual issues also take place, especially in the context of forcing margin calls (it would only be logical after all). btw, the occasional 'small incidents' were bigger fish get caught and pay small fines without admitting guilt are telling. for instance MWD was fined $500k (a ridiculous outrage...this fine won't discourage anyone)for allegedly posting spoof bids and offers on the NAZ for MONTHS to get stocks moving their way. it's the siren call of opportunity...who can resist it? it is only legitimate to actually assume the worst, and take it from there. the AMZN example is possibly a good case study for above mentioned circumstantial evidence. first of all, look at what stocks usually do when the phrase "SEC probe" comes over the wires. then a credit analyst weighs in for the SECOND time this year with his considered opinion that AMZN's debt/cash ratio raises considerable concerns...apart from which he thinks their accounting for cash does the same. then consider that huge Fido apparently has NO AMZN to lend out. sure, stocks sometimes go up on bad news, indicating that they have already discounted them. but how can SEC probes which are by nature surprises be already discounted? it sure smells on the face of it. this is not to say that there are no arguments against the idea that manipulation is widespread. obviously the market is a big zoo that has many players whose intentions don't always overlap. but the combination of suspicious activity and huge vested interests makes me think that the best approach is probably to assume that a) there IS manipulation, and b)be constantly wary because of it. interestingly, Voltaire from the porch works with the simple assumption that ALL declines and advances are somehow 'engineered'.the declines according to his logic are never something to worry about, as they simply serve the purpose to allow member firms to buy cheaply...whereupon they proceed to "aggrandize their inventory". obviously it's not that simple...we have for instance all those European fund managers confidently buying various NAZ tops this year...in the spring and the summer...out of the goodness of their hearts...-g-