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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: E who wrote (3141)11/4/2000 9:12:18 PM
From: Greg or e  Respond to of 28931
 
Good evening E
I have to say that I agree with you in respect to the tone and demeanor that has been the norm on this thread for the last while. Religion is a very difficult topic to discuss precisely because it has such strong emotions attached to it. Most people just avoid it altogether or only discuss it with people who share their views. Thus you have Christians who only talk to other Christians, Jews with other Jews, Atheists and Agnostics who will not associate with Theists and the list goes on and on. Is it any wonder that the world is the way it is? If it is not even possible in an open forum like this to talk to one another in a civilized manner then who are we to excoriate the Palestinians and the Jews who must after all put aside not just their pride, but also their dead children and loved ones in order to live in peace. Maybe it is impossibly naive of me but I am convinced that it is not because we cannot, but that we will not. I have also been guilty of this myself but I decided that I would attempt to lower my own rhetorical tone in an effort to foster an atmosphere of understanding. I would have to give most of the credit for this to Cos, if it were not for his personal integrity in this matter I would have left this discussion a long time ago.

As a result, your statement, "this place has been the first place on SI in which I've participated in civilized, non-hostile, non-confrontational conversations about religion." is one that can be shared not just the posters here but by the many who read and do not post. Speaking only for myself I have come to realize that people such as yourself are real, and that you hold the beliefs that you do, not because you checked your brain off, but because you have thought long and hard about them, struggling to make sense of a world that seems at times to make no sense. Of course you knew you were real but all I had was a characterization in my mind about nihilistic God haters who experiment on children and who would no doubt eventually go insane as syphilis slowly destroyed their brains. I know it works the other way around as well. Christians, it is said, are so gullible and stupid that they believe whatever their told without question. They believe in round triangles and pigs that fly and six impossible things before breakfast every day. They're dumber than a sack of hammers and not only that, but they're mean as snakes. It's easier to hate things you don't understand and people you do not know, don't you think? That is the true value of this forum. My hope is that it will continue to be a place where people can share openly, and discuss important questions about ultimate meaning and purpose, honestly and without wax.
Blessings on you and your family
Greg



To: E who wrote (3141)11/4/2000 11:54:50 PM
From: Greg or e  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
"IMO, it's cognitive dissonance that makes that possible"
Speaking of cognative dissonance, I came across this today, a little dated but interesting.

The 2001 Principle
by Mordechai Steinman and Gershon Robinson
2001principle.net

I. THE MYSTERY OF "2001"
In the annals of motion picture history, the film "2001: A Space Odyssey" holds a special place. Watching the film, the viewer feels that he is being treated to nothing less than an encapsulated tale of human civilization, from Day One to the present, and even into the future. The film is panoramic, and of epic proportions. The music is breathtaking, and the plot follows a spaceship that crosses the universe, searching for the source of life itself.
Millions of people have seen this film, and though "2001" is outwardly science fiction, every viewer senses an important message. Something is being said about life, the universe, and reality in general, and the message seems to be one of enormous consequence. What is actually being said, however, is strangely elusive.
In the 1960s, when "2001" came out, it left its audiences so awestruck, so mystified, and so curious, most who went to see it once, went back to see it again and again, hoping that they would be able to decipher it.
The primary mystery is the film's ending. Dave, the sole survivor of Hal's homicidal rampage, has been whisked across the universe, to an undefined place. In a small, stylishly furnished room, we see him grow old and ancient in a time-lapse sequence, until he appears on his own deathbed, incredibly withered. In the last moments of his life, he finds the strength to pull himself up and point to an object which has suddenly appeared in the room. It is the enigmatic black "monolith" which initiated the entire space odyssey. Then, just as suddenly, a huge human embryo appears on the screen floating in outer space. Wide eyed, it turns to the viewing audience, and to the triumphant tones of "Thus Spoke Zarathrusta," the film ends. There is no explanation, the film just ends.
Let us try to crack this riddle. We shall see, in fact, that "2001" does contain a message about reality -- one of ultimate importance for every human being.
II. "2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY" - PLOT SUMMARY
The film begins with about a half hour of footage featuring a troupe of apes living by a water hole. The place: "Earth." The time: "The Dawn of Man."

The troupe of apes is attacked by a second troupe and driven away from its water hole. In exile, the first troupe is awakened early one morning to the eerie sounds being generated by a mysterious object -- a black metallic slab. It is about 15 feet tall, and shaped like a huge domino. Its smooth metallic surfaces and perfect right angles are totally out of place and incongruent with the pristine beauty of a world untouched by man-made objects. It is immediately obvious to the viewer that the black geometric form originates from an intelligence which dwarfs that of the apes. With great fear and trepidation, the apes eventually work up the courage to approach the slab. They lay their hands on its "wondrous" features -- its smooth polished surfaces. This is their first encounter with "high" technology. The scene is accompanied by loud music and eerie human-like voices in the background. Suddenly, the scene switches.
It is the next day. The leader of the exiled troupe is sitting on his haunches, playing idly with the dried up bones of the skeleton of an ox. Seemingly, yesterday's encounter with the slab has given the leader a jolt forward, increasing his intelligence, for while playing with one of the bones, he discovers that a large bone can be used to break smaller bones. Longing for the water hole that was once his home, the troupe leader gathers up several large bones from the ox's skeleton, and gives them to the other male members of his troupe. Armed with this new, sophisticated weaponry, the apes easily retake the water hole, in a quick and bloody battle. Afterwards, the leader of the troupe triumphantly tosses his ox bone high into the air, and in what has been called "the greatest fast-forward in movie history" the swirling bone comes down as a spaceship, implying that the apes have evolved into man.

Since that first technological advance, at the battle for the water hole, mankind has evolved considerably, and civilization on Earth has made great technological progress. The United States has built a colony on the moon, and scientists digging there find what looks to be the same slab that the apes found! At this point, there is no reason for the scientists to assume that the slab is anything more than an inert building block. What they do know is that it has been on the moon for four million years, precluding the possibility that any human being put it there. The inevitable conclusion, as stated in the film, is as follows:
"THIS IS THE FIRST EVIDENCE OF INTELLIGENT LIFE OFF THE EARTH."
In other words, it is the first objective evidence that the universe contains intelligent life other than man.
The momentous discovery of the geometric slab is kept secret, for the Americans fear that if Earth's inhabitants learned about it "without adequate preparation and conditioning," widespread "culture shock" and "social disorientation" would inevitably ensue.
The moon moves in its orbit. Sunlight hits the slab, perhaps for the first time in eons, causing it to emit a beam into outer space. A spaceship is built and a crew is assembled to follow the beam. There is hope that the Americans will discover the intelligence that is responsible for the slab and its beam.
The spaceship takes off, on an odyssey that will span the universe. One of the main characters in this part of the film is a computer which controls and monitors most of the ship's functions. This computer, named HAL, has a human personality. He even has a human voice. For some reason, HAL rebels and begins to kill all the astronauts who are accompanying him on the mission. He tries to murder his creators. Dave, the last surviving astronaut, escapes HAL's coolly-plotted machinations and manages to dismantle him. Dave then continues the odyssey alone. In the end, Dave is captured in an inter-galactic net, apparently by the makers of the slab. We find him facing himself as an old man, sitting in a room on the other side of the universe. No explanations are given. The huge embryo comes on the screen, and the film ends.
III. COGNITIVE DISSONANCE
To crack this riddle, one needs to understand an elementary principle about human psychology: A person's wants and desires influence more than his behavior. They influence his thinking, as well, and even his powers of perception. This is true even with regard to things that would be otherwise intuitively obvious. Psychologists say that when a person is confronted by ideas or facts that are at odds with his pre-existing notions, what results is "cognitive dissonance," a sort of static in the human psyche. This "static" has the power to distort or even block perception.
An extreme example of this is described by psychiatrist Rollo May in his best-selling book, Love and Will: "A patient of mine presented data the very first session, that his mother tried to abort him before he was born, that she then gave him over to an old-maid aunt to raise him for the first two years of his life, after which she left him in an orphan's home, promising to visit him every Sunday, but rarely putting in an appearance. Now, if I were to say to him -- being naive enough to think that it would do some good -- 'Your mother hated you,' he would hear the words but they might well have no meaning whatever for him. Sometimes a vivid and impressive thing happens. Such a patient cannot even hear the word, such as 'hate,' even though the therapist repeats it... The patient cannot permit himself to perceive the trauma, until he is ready to take a stand toward it."
When disturbing information creates "cognitive dissonance," the "static" discredits the information, so that a person does not feel compelled to cope with it, even if it is true. If a fact or idea is sufficiently contrary to his or her "status quo," the threatening data can be prevented from entering their consciousness at all! In effect, "cognitive dissonance" is a tremendously powerful "self-preservation" mechanism which can completely override the human desire for truth.
In "2001" there is a certain idea that can create very intense "cognitive dissonance," even in people who are very well-adjusted and highly intelligent. That is, what the film says about the discovery of the monolithic slab can actually be said of the film itself:
THERE IS SOMETHING IN "2001" THAT CAN CAUSE "WIDESPREAD SHOCK AND SOCIAL DISORIENTATION."
What, in fact, is it about "2001" that can jolt a person so powerfully?
Man is an intelligent, expressive and creative force in the universe. He realizes this, and is proud of it. This being the case, if there were indications that, really, his entire existence is an expression of a higher intelligence, he would be greatly shaken. Such a notion would be "belittling" to him. Moreover, if this notion is correct, it would require him to make major adjustments in terms of how he views himself and the world around him. Accordingly, such indications would be very threatening, and would trigger great amounts of dissonance in him.
From popular literature we can gain a feeling for just how much trauma might be involved. In Kurt Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions, the author decides to "go down" into the pages of his book, in order to meet his favorite character. At this point in the book, the favorite character is sitting at a bar, calmly nursing a drink. Suddenly he is overcome by a tremendous feeling of anxiety and apprehension. He senses that something is about to enter the room -- something not only awesome, but also something that he "cannot possibly face." That something is the author -- Vonnegut.
Imagine the scene. There sits the favorite character, content with the idea that he is, in fact, a real human being. To say the least, his encountering his creator would occasion a profound crisis in identity. Finding out that he is nothing more than a character in a story would force him to make major adjustments in his way of thinking. Can you appreciate the potential for trauma here?
Due to "cognitive dissonance," if a person is asked if a certain idea is true, and his response is, "I don't know," it may not be the case that "sufficient evidence" is lacking. His "I don't know" may be of the "cognitive dissonance" variety. In sum, his doubt can be categorized as being of two possible types:
TYPE I, THE LOGICAL "I DON'T KNOW," is based on logic and reason. For example, before probes landed on Mars and sent back reports, if a scientist had been asked if Mars had life on it, he would have answered simply, "I don't know." The basis for his answer was purely rational. He lacked information. Before the probes scientists had no conclusive proof about whether there was life on Mars. Possibly there was life there, but how could anyone know?
TYPE II, THE EMOTIONAL "I DON'T KNOW," is completely divorced from logic and reason. Doubt here is not based on a lack of evidence or a shortage of information. On the contrary, the evidence here is compelling, but doubt springs from a powerful and subconscious "I can't take it." Examples of this type abound, especially in the history of science where sufficient evidence existed to support new, revolutionary discoveries, but scientists could not accept the evidence, and remained skeptical, for the new findings flew in the face of their views. "Cognitive dissonance," the phenomenon that creates this type of doubt, can provoke bizarre thinking even in those who are noted for logic and reason.
To be cont



To: E who wrote (3141)11/5/2000 7:47:57 AM
From: Solon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
Thank you, E. I am properly chastized for venting so strongly. Although, I think it is appropriate at times to cause those that see tumours growing out of your head, or are trying to push you out of the path of a train--to understand that we would also like to push them out of the path of the train---and the train we see is not an illusion.

I am better now and can take a deep breath. It just gets so exasperating to look in the book and read about the exact way Aaron is supposed to kill the goat, and which of his toes and ears and fingers to dab the blood on, and how to spatter the blood, and so on. The primitive tribalism rings so clear.

The search for God is a rational search. Inquiring minds want to know. But when the only God people will come up with, just happens to be (by coincidence) one that always fights on a particular side--then it seems like less than an honest and sincere effort is being made.

Anyway--another deep breath. Time for some remedial yoga...