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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Dayuhan who wrote (86902)	11/6/2000 8:06:46 PM
From: E	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

What punishment do you propose for the Palestinians "outside of government" who engage in "deliberate provocation"? Any at all? I'm not sure how cutting off aid to Israel helps any of this. Maybe we should pull the CIA out of its advisory activities vis a vis Arafat's security entities, all thirteen of them. Would you be in favor of that? Sounds good to me. The ill-advised, in fact reckless, policy of expanding settlement in the West Bank was wrong, and it was dumb of the US to go along with it for so long; there is a sense in which both the US and the present Israeli leadership are trying to escape from the consequences of the policy of creating "facts on the ground." But what are the Israelis supposed to do at this point? They've been presented with tableaux of absolute, vicious hatred toward them, including even primary school textbooks full of hatred, including even children's summer camps that teach vicious hatred, including brainwashing of children and their parents on a large scale to the effect that to kill a Jew takes you straight to Paradise and makes your family community heroes; and for the first time the Arab citizens within Israel have associated themselves with the utterly violent attitudes of the PLO. The Palestinians have revealed something about their attitudes and beliefs toward the Jews that is utterly devastating to the premises of the Israeli peace movement. If I were an Israeli peacenik now, I'd feel like I'd been revealed as a naive fool. What is this "sincerity" that the Israelis will have to "convince" the Palestinians of? How will they do that? By walking into the sea? That would work. Short of that, what, that wouldn't make them even more vulnerable to those who want them all dead, dead, dead? We aren't giving something that we don't see as in our own interest, anyway. Message 14736479 Message 14738396 (I'm giving those links in case you didn't read my earlier comments regarding the Palestinians before you posted.) Hey, now that I think of it, I'm for doing nothing, zilch, for the Palestinians, until they stop killing their daughters and sisters for being raped, or for chatting with a stranger, and not being punished by the law, nay, in fact being admired for it. Use your sons, murder your daughters, and others have to convince you of their "sincerity"? They can go f themselves, as far as I'm concerned.

To: Dayuhan who wrote (86902)	11/7/2000 7:01:13 PM
From: E	Respond to of 108807

Hi, Steven. I believe this is the first time i've ever disagreed with you on a political issue. Maybe on anything. "1. Money and material aid It is startling to realize that of $2 billion pledged to the PA internationally, 50 percent came from Europe, 25 percent from the United States, 10 percent from Japan, and only 5 percent ($125 million) from the Arab world (Saudi Arabia and the UAE)." biu.ac.il That seems to say that 25% of two billion dollars in aid to the Palestinian Authority came from the U.S. (And only 5%, or $125.million, from the Arab world.) That seems like a surprisingly high figure to me, so I've posted the question on Personal Jeeves about what our aid to the PA was. I'll report if somebody answers me. Below is a more-than-interesting interesting piece that relates to your call for Israel to make progress settling matters with the Palestinians, and the question of just what might convince the Palestinians of Israeli "sincerity." I would say also that it relates to Palestinian sincerity, and other attitudes, for example about what it is decent to do for PR, even to the question of whether the Palestinians will ever be convinceable. It relates mainly to whose moral responsibility it is that those children are in harm's way, and being harmed. The article ends by talking about the psychological scarring of the children who participate. It begins with an interview with a Palestinian woman who is involved in family planning programs in Gaza City. There is astonishing information in between. sightings.com Excerpts. I will bold some phrases that were particularly striking to me. GAZA CITY (AFP) - Family planning programmes in the Gaza Strip have all but come to a halt, with Palestinian women expecting some of their children to be killed anyway in the fighting against Israel... "If you ask them now to follow a family planning programme, they refuse outright, saying that producing more children is one way to keep the intifada going." Muhanna contemptuously denied claims by the Israelis that Palestinian women lack feeling and deliberately send their children to throw stones and Molotov cocktails at Israeli soldiers, knowing they might die. "That's a lie," she said. She did not know of a single mother, she added, who had deliberately sent her child to go throw stones. "The choice was left entirely to the child."... Muhanna claimed that some women struggling with families of 10 children or more felt "relief" when a child died in the fight against Israeli occupation. Not only did a "martyr" bring honour to the family, it also brought cash compensation from the Palestinian Authority -- of up to 1,000 dollars... [Steven, the average annual income for a Palestinian is under $2000. If 5% of that can be saved (and saving is hard on 2k a year) the PA (subsidized by us) is paying the equivalent of 10 years of savings for each martyr, if this information is correct.] "But...Palestinian women don't want their children to die." She added, however, "Many women are so disempowered that they feel producing boy babies is their only way of contributing to the intifada."... "All Palestinians encourage stone-throwing, because we can't make the Israelis change without this." Muhanna said children from all social and economic strata are to be found throwing stones at Israeli soldiers in the daily clashes in the Gaza Strip, although children from poorer families tended to dominate the crowds." [I should think so, wouldn't you, Steven? A thousand dollars! And if the average income is $2000, there are a lot of $1000 a year parents whose rock throwing son, if killed, will bring them a year's income, or an amount equivalent to a life's savings. This is unacceptable of me to point out, isn't it? Even if it's true. Especially if it's true. You will never, ever hear this on the radio or mentioned in the news. This is hideous, IMO a virtual war crime against their own children, but mentioning it is extremely un-PC.] [Something just occurred to me. A detail. I want to know if those children who are transported to the areas of confrontation are given pocket money or bagged lunches. I have handled large groups of children. You don't go anyplace without food and/or pocket money. Just curious. Anybody know how I could find out? It gives me a strange feeling to visualize the distributing by adults of lunch bags to the small martyr-prospects.] "It is left entirely up to the children."