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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Kid Rock who wrote (86915)11/8/2000 3:56:03 PM
From: E  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
Webster defines it as "the organized persecution of an ethnic group, especially Jews."

The Jews have been vulnerable, and have made easy targets as scapegoats, and have endured so many attacks and massacres in the last 3000 years that many people, I among them, think it important that they have a Jewish-controlled place to go to be safe when they are again under threat. There is always a demand for scapegoats. The largest pogrom was, of course, the Holocaust, which killed an estimated third of all the world's Jews. I think the Jews have done their part in supplying the world's scapegoat market. Time for a safe haven.

Reading about historical pograms, I came on this interesting paragraph about the origins of the ghetto. Of course ghettoization makes for easy targeting.

<<<At first, Jews in the diaspora segregated voluntarily. This was partly for
self-protection, but it was perhaps more the result of the requirements of the
Jewish religion: to be close to a synagogue and other religious institutions. The
concept of segregating Jews involuntarily behind walls was developed in ancient
times, but it was not actually implemented as a policy until 1462 in Frankfurt,
Germany. The idea caught on in the rest of Europe and became the norm in the
16th century...

However, the isolation of Jews in ghettos had the effect of eliminating
assimilation with the host communities, and preserved and enhanced the survival
of the Jewish culture. Those governments unwilling even to tolerate Jews who
were segregated in ghettos expelled them.At one time or another, all Jews were
expelled from England (1290), France (1306 and 1394),Austria (1420), and Spain
(1492). There were local expulsions throughout Europe including thosein Germany.
Some expulsion policies were reversed when governments realized that the
Jewsserved a useful purpose.

It was not until the Enlightenment that Jews had the opportunity to participate
inmodern society free from persecution...>>>

killeenroos.com

Here is a quote from an interesting Zionist website:

<<<Palestinians chose to begin a continuous stream of
attacks against Jewish residents and immigrants to
Palestine starting with 11 unprovoked attacks on
unarmed Jewish villages between 1888 and 1914, and
continuing with the 1920-21 waves of attacks that
prompted the Jews to form the Hagannah, to the 1929
Palestine wide anti-Jewish pogroms, to the Arab
campaign of 1936 in which 92 Jewish villages were
attacked just between April and August, to the Arab
attacks against Jewish targets killing a total of 79 Jews
in the 12 days following passage of the UN partition
resolution on November 30, 1947.>>>

salam-shalom.net



To: Kid Rock who wrote (86915)11/8/2000 4:07:42 PM
From: E  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 108807
 
Good op ed piece in today's NYT by an Israeli "peacenik." I agree with everything in it, except that he seems more optimistic than I am about a resolution of the right of return in the light of the recent hate-displays, the hate- textbooks, the child martyr-policy, the release of the convicted terrorists.

It's a very good piece. One could almost have hope.

nytimes.com

November 8, 2000

The Pain Israel Must Accept

By DAVID GROSSMAN

JERUSALEM — "I am opposed to our violent
demonstrations," a Palestinian friend told me
last week. "We must switch to quiet
demonstrations and peaceful methods, not only
because of the terrible loss of life, but
because our behavior threatens you, and then
you respond with even greater violence and are
not prepared to listen to us."

It is hard to imagine that many people in Israel
today are prepared to listen to what the
Palestinians have to say, especially when they
accompany their words with brutal acts of
terror, menacing behavior and blood- curdling
threats. And yet, those who truly seek a
solution must listen.

Anyone who talks today to Palestinians in
important positions is forced to admit that
much of what they say is true. According to the
map that was supposed to have been made
permanent by the Oslo accords, the
Palestinians would have ended up not with a
real state, but with only a few blots of land,
ringed and bisected by the presence of the
Israeli occupier — which, after the bloody
battles, would have engendered a sense of
humiliation in every Palestinian heart. All these
truths and many more have created a situation
in which Israel must resort to the most
convoluted logic (not to mention moral
acrobatics) in order to defend itself.

If one takes a hard look at the major obstacles
that stand in the way of any kind of agreement
between Israel and Palestinians, and one
assumes that the problem of the Palestinian
right of return can be resolved in the spirit of
the understandings reached at Camp David, it
becomes impossible to ignore the centrality of
the settlements.

Is it so ridiculous to hope that once the winds
have died down, Israel will address this
question? Is there any possibility that we will
finally realize that even in a matter as
emotionally charged as this, we cannot impose a
solution on the Palestinians? That maybe, in its
own best interests, Israel should inflict pain on
itself in the short term, pain that is almost
intolerable, to reach, in the long run, the goals
that are genuinely vital to it?

Today, Palestinians, both official and
semi-official, say that settlers who want to
remain in the territories under Palestinian
sovereignty are welcome to do so. The rest
would return to Israel. Yet realizing that they
have no other choice, the Palestinians accept
the possibility that certain blocs of
settlements will be annexed to Israel in a
symmetrical land-exchange agreement.

It is hard to imagine that many Israelis would
rely on the good will of the Palestinian
authorities and place their security in
Palestinian hands. But one needn't be a great
expert to understand that no state in the world
would accept the presence of fortified, heavily
armed enclaves in its midst, defended by the
soldiers of another country and bound to that
country in dozens of mutually exclusive ways.

There is no choice anymore. Bitter as it may
be, we must say what many Israelis have been
thinking in their hearts for years: To achieve a
just and lasting peace, a large number of
settlements will have to be uprooted. Not just
small settlements like Ganim, Netzarim and
Kadim in the West Bank, but any settlement —
no matter how large and well-established —
whose location may hinder a future peace
agreement. That means Ofra, Qiryat Arba and
Beit El, which are also in the West Bank, and
settlements in the Jordan Valley and the
Hebron hills.

Let's not pretend: The overwhelming majority
of settlements were established for the
express purpose of preventing an agreement,
or at least blocking any territorial continuum
that would allow for a Palestinian state. Now,
when these tactics have proven "successful,"
creating a tangled web that has made the
situation complicated beyond belief, the
settlers are saying: You see! Peace is
impossible under such conditions!

And so the time has come when all Israelis
must ask themselves honestly whether they are
prepared to die for the sake of tens of
thousands of settlers who live in isolated,
armed enclaves in the heart of an Arab
population. Are they prepared to have their
children put their lives in danger to defend
these settlements?

As the friction between Israel and the
Palestinians continues, Israel is often pushed
into hunkering down, even when it is clear that
its position is hard to defend. Time after time,
Israel finds itself adopting a harder line,
which is only to its detriment, and then
retreating after a painful bloodletting.

For that reason, it is time to ask ourselves
again whether the statement, "We won the
Six-Day War" must lead to the conclusion that
"we will stay there forever, in the heart of a
conquered people." Will our great victory boil
down to that?

For years, the peace camp has stuttered about
the need to evacuate the settlements, put off
by the idea of uprooting families and the
children who were born there and afraid of
the national trauma that such an act would
entail. But the time for stuttering is over.
Common sense tells us that we cannot defend
the settlements and that they endanger the
fragile prospects for peace. They will have to
be dismantled.

Supporters of peace must reach a conscious
decision, with all the pain it brings, and take
the final step. The events of the last month,
even if they generate worry and doubt,
reinforce the importance of such a step and
show that there is great danger if Israel lacks
the courage to make such a decision.