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To: kodiak_bull who wrote (78690)	11/12/2000 9:27:22 AM
From: Second_Titan	Respond to of 95453

ME tensions rising as the blood flow in the streets increases. Wonder how much of a topic this is during today's OPEC meeting? nytimes.com

To: kodiak_bull who wrote (78690)	11/12/2000 1:07:46 PM
From: JungleInvestor	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 95453

Washington Post article excerpt below is very telling on the problems in manual recount (last paragraph) as are the photos of counters holding ballots up to the light looking for something. People have biases (conscious or unconscious). How can you count a million ballots manually and eliminate these biases? Criteria has changed once, how many more times will they change - and who is the god who sets these criteria (a democrat in this county?). Gore's people were very intelligent in pushing for a manual recount in these four counties, forcing Republicans to be the first to go to court first for an injunction to stop the manual recount. Will Florida be done with all of this by December 18 when the Electoral College votes? The elections are rapidly becoming a farce and a crisis. washingtonpost.com A painstaking hand count of presidential ballots began yesterday in Florida as legal maneuvers increased on both sides in the agonizingly close battle for the state's 25 electoral votes that will determine the identity of the next president. Under the watchful eye of representatives of Vice President Gore and Texas Gov. George W. Bush, election officials broke the seals on silver metal boxes and began inspecting 4,500 ballots cast Tuesday in four precincts of Palm Beach County, making up 1 percent of the county's vote. More ballots could be counted later, depending on the results of this sample. But the count proceeded very slowly yesterday amid confusion and controversy over the criteria to be used to determine the intentions of voters whose cards failed to register a presidential choice. Part way through the count, election officials said they were changing their standards for making that judgment. . . . . As if to illustrate Baker's contention, the spokesman for the Palm Beach County election commission told reporters, four hours after the recount had begun there, that officials had issued new instructions to the workroom. In the beginning, the teams of vote counters held up each ballot without a clear presidential choice to the ceiling lights, and if they agreed that they could see through one box, they credited the vote to that candidate. But rules adopted by the county in 1990 said that for a vote to be valid, at least part of the "chad," the square that is to be punched out, must be separated from the rest of the ballot. That regulation was substituted for the "seeing daylight" standard, and previously counted ballots would be reexamined, officials said. Simple indentations would not be taken as evidence of voter intent.

To: kodiak_bull who wrote (78690)	11/12/2000 5:21:07 PM
From: Winkman777	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 95453

K Bull, Gore "end justifies the means" type like Stalin, Hitler, and MAO"???? That's the gist of what you said, and what I incredulously responded to. What has happened so far: 1. A very close election in Florida. 2. A mechanical recount required by state law makes it even closer. Bush still ahead by a few hundred. 3. Sample manual recount (1%) in Palm Beach county has Gore picking up 19 votes. If this trend holds up throughout this and other heavily democratic counties, Gore will pull ahead thousands of votes. 4. Republicans go to court to stop legal manual recounts requested by democrats in 4 heavily democratic counties. 5. The deadline may have passed for Republicans to ask for recounts in other Florida counties. (Read somewhere that deadline is 72 hours after the election.) 6. There is another issue about (confusing to some) butterfly ballots in democratic Palm Beach county. Opinions: 1. It is difficult to see any merit to the Republican request for an injunction to stop the legal manual recounts. 2. Democratic officials approved the Palm Beach county ballot. Therefore there is little justification for a revote. 3. After the manual recounts in the 4 Democratic counties and the counting of absentee ballots, Gore will have more votes than Bush. Where we do go from here? Who knows? But since it is just as likely for the vote counting machinery to miscount Republican or Democrat votes, it would be fair to recount all or none of the Florida counties. Then there is the need for expediency. This election should be settled by next Friday (11/17). I feel that Gore should concede the election to Bush, in order to avoid the appearance of having "stolden" the election and because it is the "right thing to do". K Bull, if Gore does not concede, I think that he will be choosing this unfair means to win. IMHO Gore is patriotic enough to do the right thing. My concern is that how can he if he is ahead by probably 1000's of votes after the manual recounts in Democratic counties. I am a moderate, centrist Republican who voted for Bush. My man was McCain. The average poster on this thread is male, college educated, reasonably wealthy, and therefore significantly to the right of center politically. I have at times chosen to play devil's advocate to a few of you. IMO it was at least a little extreme to equate Gore with Hitler, Mao, or Uncle Joe. But overall K Bull, I see you as one of our most intelligent and informative posters. Take care all. Hopefully we will overcome this uncertainty and political division. Gore needs to do the "right thing". The honorable Ford and even "tricky Dick" did. It is time for Gore to again (like volunteering for VietNam) chose his country over his personal need to win/survive. Winkman

To: kodiak_bull who wrote (78690)	11/12/2000 9:55:55 PM
From: Douglas V. Fant	Respond to of 95453

kodiak bull, Let's see what the official automatic recount reveals after all absentee ballots are in and counted. That will change the dynamics of the game. The little four precinct rushed hand count by Democratic Officials in Palm Beach County? Why was that done?? That information was purposely rushed to the press corps and released primarily as a Gore Campaign strategy to discredit the State of Florida's official automatic recount numbers before they are completed....The Democratic Party was anxious to get out a little contradictory information on the street to start tearing down the moral and legal basis of those official recount numbers FWIW.....