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To: kodiak_bull who wrote (79069)	11/15/2000 12:14:18 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Respond to of 95453

OT Kodiac Bull. Very well stated. Where are the great buffalo herds that used to darken the plains? We almost extinguished a species in a few short years when there were a lot less of us. Those that abhor government regulation often have excellent points to make, but the profit system doesn't protect many of the most important values we have whose preservation often conflicts with making a buck. That's what happens with an unregulated or poorly regulated timber industry, with overgrazing of private and federal lands,with over fishing of the oceans and the streams, with clear cutting tropical forrests and on and on. Government regulation with a look at the greater good and the longer view is necessary. The bottom line is that there are too many people on the earth and we are all clawing for our own small share of the resources. Each one of us makes an insignificant impact, but together and growing at the rate we are, the impact may well be significant. I don't belive we can cause a major catastrophic event directly, but who knows what events we set in motion that once started might well lead to unstoppable and disastarous consequences for our children's children. It seems that nature has a way of creating balances and when things get out of balance, nature finds a way of bringing them back. Right now there are a lot of people on the planet running back and forth and mining and depleting the mineral and biological resources of the planet. If they all had the consumption and standard of living that we did, how long could that last? Ed

To: kodiak_bull who wrote (79069)	11/15/2000 12:36:01 PM
From: isopatch	Respond to of 95453

OT/Agree K.B. We need to do a whole lot better than we have: And it's damn difficult with the economic and political interests who so frequently obscure objective science as well as practical approaches to assessing and dealing with these must solve problems in a more timely and practical way. On the government side of the fence, for example, the EPA's arbitrary and near perfect parts/million standards that they demand before certifying completion of each "super fund" toxic waste site has resulted only a handful of sites being worked towards ice cream plant purity. Meanwhile risks of greater and greater environmental damage rise at the huge number of very dangerous super fund sites that this EPA regime may never get to! It's time for some common sense standards to enter into dealing with these problems so we can get the job done! Huge amounts of money have been spend in what IMO has been a horribly administered program and only questionable outcomes to show for it. Isopatch

To: kodiak_bull who wrote (79069)	11/15/2000 12:45:46 PM
From: edward miller	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 95453

Quite a response, but I don't disagree with you. We all do make a difference, unfortunately at times. I actually agree with a lot of what you said. In addition I actually live by my convictions by driving a small car, when necessary, and bike to work in good weather. I have always lived close to my work location to minimize the bad impact that I make just by living. It is absolutely true that we do bad things to the environment. However, my real point was that what passes as science today is in my opinion taking trends and extrapolating them out to infinity, which is absolutely ridiculous. I do not believe we will ever overheat the planet even if we consciously tried. The planet is cooling when you look at the very long trends. Remember that when the dinosaurs lived the earth was much hotter than it is now. That trend is not reversing. We are in a "short term" cycle in which we are deceiving ourselves. The catch is the "short term" cycle could last another 50 years or more. Also, with peak production of oil probably hitting within the next decade, we humans are likely to be running short of oil to do our dirty business. Rather than assuming that relatively easy solutions will be there in time, I suspect that we will go through some tough times in the future - like trying to get by with less energy because all these "future" sources aren't coming on line as fast as people had hoped. That means famine and war, then fewer people. The basic truth is that the planet (and the rest of the universe) is cooling. In a few million years earth will be too cold to support human life. We are all dead in the long run. With the knowledge that the universe is ever expanding the laws of thermodynamics prove it. By the way, with an expanding universe we have another small problem as a species. All the thought of escaping in the future to another planet in another solar system is science fiction, rather pure fiction. These other possible life support systems are racing away from our solar system so quickly that we will never reach them. All just my opinion of course. So you see I am not talking about how humans can make some impact that will be insignificant in the very long haul. In the long haul, we are all dead.