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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Johannes Pilch who wrote (79074)	11/17/2000 1:32:20 AM
From: Lorne	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

hypocrisy is... 1 - claiming hand counts are no good when you have personally picked up 400 votes by hand counts in 6 Florida counties. 2 - claiming hand counts are no good when you support the system in your own state 3 - campaigning as an advocate for state's rights then running to a federal court when the state courts in Florida interpret Florida law as going against you. 4 - claiming that machine counts are the only way to go when the second machine count resulted in Gore picking up over 900 votes more than he did in the first machine count. 5 - constantly levelling charges of partisanship when the Governor is your brother and the woman who may hold the final decision is your co-chair in Florida and campaigned for you in New Hampshire during the primaries. 6 - constantly using the argument that "it's about the rule of law" when every court decision has gone against you. 7 - I could go on, as could the GWB supporters which brings us to the bottom line... EVERYONE KNOWS THAT IF EVERY PERSON WHO SHOWED UP TO VOTE IN FLORIDA ON NOV. 7 HAD THEIR VOTE REGISTERED AS THEY INTENDED THAT AL GORE WOULD HAVE CARRIED THE STATE AND THEREFORE THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE. GUARANTEED MINIMUM EXTRA VOTES FOR GORE WITH NO SPOILED BALLOTS IS IN THE 20,000 TO 30,000 RANGE. THIS IS STATISTICALLY FACTUAL AND I'LL BE GLAD TO EXPLAIN WHY IF ANYBODY REALLY CARES. THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN!

To: Johannes Pilch who wrote (79074)	11/17/2000 1:38:18 AM
From: Master (Hijacked)	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 769670

Johannes, You are missing the point. A machine count will produce the same tally time and time again on a properly punched card. The problem therefore is NOT in recounting the properly punched cards, it is in the subjectivity of interpreting the improperly punched ones as well as the objectivity of the people counting them. If a card is sligthly bulging (what they are now calling dimples) does candidate "B" get the vote? Will another election officer scrutinizing a similarly bulging card come to the same conclusion? That, is the problem. Vince

To: Johannes Pilch who wrote (79074)	11/17/2000 8:12:22 AM
From: Neocon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

OCR programs are notoriously inadequate, but they are also irrelevant, since the machines are reading punchouts, not write-ins. By the time one factors in multiple handling (after all, there were two machine counts), the lack of agreed upon criteria for counting a ballot, and normal human error, the supposition that one is getting a better reading of the "will of the people" is spurious. Finally, as I say, without a willingness to recount close ballots throughout the country, and to litigate all irregularities, there is nothing fair in the Florida situation anyway. Now, perhaps you would be willing to see the can of worms opened, if that is what it takes, but the potential for endless trouble and expense is daunting. I will repost something on "the will of the people" shortly........

To: Johannes Pilch who wrote (79074)	11/17/2000 8:14:12 AM
From: Neocon	Respond to of 769670

The metaphysics of the popular will: There is no such thing as "the people", except as an abstract construct. Rather, there are many persons who are taken, for certain purposes, as a corporate entity. There is, thus, no such thing as the "will of the people", there is only the will of various persons revealed by vote under certain rules on certain occasions. That is one of the reasons why the most important business, such as amending the Constitution, requires an absolute majority, or the votes of 75% of those eligible, and why most consequential decisions in legislatures must achieve concurrent majorities in two houses, and run the gauntlet of an executive veto. Only in that way can the persistent and considered will of the persons involved in voting be assumed, if not proven. Transient ordinary majorities are nothing, especially when incidental factors like rainfall or television news can influence turnout in crucial instances. To insist that Gore has won the popular vote is not only premature and constitutionally irrelevant, it is irrelevant in a larger sense. There is nothing sacrosanct about a transient majority, especially when it represents a small percentage of eligible voters, and a modest majority of registered voters to begin with. That is why, except to cure actual mischief, the resort to hand counting is absurd (and likely to be unfair in turn). It is more important to observe the integrity of the process, to enforce agreed upon rules, than to try to divine the "will of the people". Similarly, it is more important to have a president of the whole country, or at least a reasonable swathe, than to chase the popular majority, especially one that is razor thin, which is why the Electoral College is a wise expedient........