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Technology Stocks : Cisco Systems, Inc. (CSCO) -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: FESHBACH_DISCIPLE who wrote (43696)11/22/2000 3:45:21 AM
From: SyncMan  Respond to of 77400
 
Cisco versus Nortel

I think you are working off a bad premise. The optical space seems to be plenty big enough for at least 2 (perhaps more) big players. Cisco will certainly big a player, and it looks at this moment that Nortel will to. As far as profit margin's go, as long as Nortel is in the lead (with Oc768, etc), they will command the highest profit margins, but Cisco is good at making/buying things that are cheaper/better/faster.

And it's not debatable how CSCO makes it money. It has customers like GE, Walmart, IBM, Microsoft, MCI, Quest, etc. who pay in Cash. It's only the tax things that people question, and they are done by everybody. Cisco just gets more attention because of how big it is.

Anyway, remember, when you talk about Nortel, you are talkinga bout Optical (and a dying telcom market), wireless, etc..

When you are talking Cisco, you are talking an ever growing IP, Optical, ,etc. Optical is not the whole game with either company. Cisco's growth in Routers these last 2 quarters were among the fastest in it's history. The market for high speed routers is NOT going down. And with China/India/etc/ to come, the future looks good.



To: FESHBACH_DISCIPLE who wrote (43696)11/22/2000 10:38:04 PM
From: Techplayer  Respond to of 77400
 
Fesh, I suspect that NT's would have to come down in a head to head battle. I have heard of numerous cases where CSCO slashes prices dramatically to fend off the competition for the Cerent box. At this point, I don't believe that NT has a competitive product to battle that box so the point is moot for either company right now. tp



To: FESHBACH_DISCIPLE who wrote (43696)11/23/2000 10:52:37 AM
From: bambs  Respond to of 77400
 
How's about they all margins go down over the next 3-5 years until csco's, cien, jnpr and nt's products sell with margins like we see in the cell phone area. 6-8% on all hardware.

It will happen...it may take 8 years...but it will happen...let's see how actual earnings grow in the coming quarters....CSCO seems to be having trouble getting over that 11 cents actual earnings level. 3 out of the last 4 quarters had actual earnings of 11 cents.

bambs



To: FESHBACH_DISCIPLE who wrote (43696)11/23/2000 12:43:13 PM
From: The Phoenix  Respond to of 77400
 
Which margins?

The margins on the optical equipment? How are you looking at this problem. NT's margins are a function of high margin optical sales and low margin circuit switch sales....as NT's sells fewer circuit switches their margins will increase...however if they continue to execute in that market margins will errode since late adopter markets are price sensitive markets. The optical market is not price sensitive today and as new functions are added (such as end to end wavelength provisioning) price points will not errode - at least anytime soon.

So, the question is... are you talking about overall corporate margins or segment specific margins. If you're talking about the later, where are you getting your data from since niether company breaks out segment specific margins.

Also another consideration is new markets - such as metro - which are still in their infancy - and what impact does that have on revenues and margins.

The trouble is that many value/accounting based views of this market and the companies within it don't work well because the market is still very volatile - with new technologies, solutions, and services being developed every day. it's not like selling "Coca-Cola" or running a bank.. this isn't a static environment where one can extrapolate current markets and products into the future because in 10 years today's markets and products will be obsolete... new products and markets and perhaps new competitors will exist. Technology marches on... think about it.

OG



To: FESHBACH_DISCIPLE who wrote (43696)11/23/2000 12:43:16 PM
From: telecomguy  Respond to of 77400
 
I don't think that CSCO and NT are competing in exactly the same space in the optics space.

Cerent is an optical router is it not? NT doesn't really have anything to compete in this front as far as I know which is why they are probably reselling Juniper boxes. NT's Optical systems are more in the core of the network with their optical switches.....correct me if I am wrong someone that has better understanding of the networking technolgy.



To: FESHBACH_DISCIPLE who wrote (43696)11/24/2000 6:25:25 PM
From: Mick Mørmøny  Respond to of 77400
 
Short Circuit II
Shorted Out

zdnet.com

The most famous victims of the bull market, however, are probably the feshbach brothers - Kurt, Joe and Matt - who were notorious in the 1980s for their attacks on companies they didn't like. They threw in the towel in the middle 1990s.

A celebrated hedge fund manager who quit earlier this year was Julian Robertson, whose Tiger Management was short on several billion dollars of technology stocks when Robertson pulled the plug, according to HedgeWorld, a service for the hedge fund industry. "The current technology, Internet and telecom craze . . . is unwittingly creating a Ponzi pyramid destined for collapse," Robertson reportedly wrote to his clients in March just before he announced the closing of the fund. This turned out to be unfortunate timing for his investors; he closed it only weeks before the Nasdaq collapse.

Another well-known short who pulled back is Michael Murphy. In September, he merged his Overpriced Stock Service (OSS) newsletter in with Short On Value, a letter published by Will Lyons, that recommends using shorts as a hedge on long investments. Short On Value has been in business since 1992.

OSS began publishing in 1983 and focused on technology stocks. It featured Murphy's scathing comments on companies he believed to be overvalued and analysts whose work he did not like.

When OSS stopped publishing, Murphy closed short positions in Ariba, Bottomline Technologies, Broadcom, Critical Path, Microsoft, Multex.com, Sybase and Veritas Software. Ariba was his worst short, a 50 percent loss in a couple of months. But he said he made money on five of his other seven shorts.

One celebrity short who's still in business is James Chanos, who runs Kynikos Associates in New York. At 24, Chanos made his name in 1984 for uncovering the scandal about Baldwin-United, an insurance company that went bankrupt after its fraudulent practices were confirmed, and withstood criticism from the Wall Street firms that were touting the stock, including Merrill Lynch.

But short selling has changed. Short sellers are no longer able to "badger stocks" the way they could two decades ago, said Charles Gradante, chief investment officer at the Hennessee Hedge Fund Advisory Group, a New York consulting firm. Information is too readily available and shorts cannot take large positions that expose what they're doing, he said, which is why their funds have shrunk to less than $100 million from $500 million, according to sources.

But hedge funds still use the practice extensively, especially long/short funds, which own some shares and short others. CSFB Tremont said that these funds were up 5.27 percent through the first three quarters of 2000, after a 47.23 percent gain last year. The number of all kinds of hedge funds has grown 648 percent during the last decade.

Why short stocks? Plainly because shorts see some stocks as being overvalued. Paul McEntire, chairman and managing director of Skye Investment Advisors in Los Gatos, Calif., and manager of the BearGuard Fund, is a Stanford Ph.D. who worked on the Apollo space program before becoming a money manager. Shorting can be useful for hedging long-term investments, he says, although "as a stand-alone business it is not very interesting." McEntire's fund, which began in November 1999, was down 5 percent through early November. But from March 9 until April 14, when the Nasdaq fell 34.2 percent, it was up 33.5 percent, and from Sept. 1 to Oct. 12, it rose 28.7 percent, while the Nasdaq dropped 27.4 percent.

If short stock has a negative correlation with a long - a share that an investor owns - it can offset a price decline in the long stock. An investor who has shorted a stock also receives rebate interest from his broker and he may realize a capital gain. "That is a valuable investment," McEntire said. "You are not putting out any extra money; you are earning maybe an extra 12 percent and you are reducing the risk to your portfolio."

Shorts make a mistake if they sell a stock just because its valuation is too high, said Hennessee's Gradante. They have to find some event and short a stock just before or immediately after that event occurs. "You would not put a short on Cisco just because it has the second largest market cap behind GE," he said. "Cisco could be the GE of tomorrow."

McEntire spread his investments in the BearGuard Fund over 75 stocks, none equal to more than 1 percent of the value of the fund. "I would love to have a 5 percent short, but you have to protect against the one in 1,000 chance that a stock will triple, double or quadruple."

The fund likes to hold shorts for three to five years and has shorted one stock for 11 years, McEntire said. That company is CopyTele, a Long Island firm that, on its face, seems like one that could have been invented by short sellers. Founded in 1982, the company still describes itself as a start-up. It has virtually no revenue or earnings and is a favorite of shorts.

Though some might call McEntire one of those ghouls or vultures, he talks more like a Ph.D. And as the manager of a public fund, he tries to avoid any appearance of actively seeking to damage a company's stock price. He does not campaign against companies or spread negative stories, he said, but will talk candidly about their valuations and their business models. In fact, his past comments about Amazon being overvalued sound a lot like those being made now by most mainstream security analysts.

Lyons said people who blame short sellers for driving down the price of stocks or the market have it all wrong. "There aren't enough shorts to make the market go down," he said. "People who say that might as well blame the surf because there are waves." Nor does he have patience for the idea that short selling is unchristian. "I can't imagine any greater waste of capital than investing in a Web company that has a $30 billion value and no business," Lyons said.

Six to nine months ago was a great time to short technology stocks because so many were so overvalued and had such flimsy business plans, he said. It is still possible to short, and even safer, because stocks are unlikely to suddenly run up 20 percent to 40 percent in a month, Lyons said.

Even Wade - after his initial and dramatic outburst against short sellers - concedes they have a place in the investment world. "Maybe if the shorts were around this unbridled run-up would not have happened. But a lot of these stocks have gotten so high, they are too high to short," he said.

Text continues...
Short Circuit
Regulating The Market


James Spitzenberger, a chip designer for LSI Logic, dabbled in short selling this year, lost money and now wants the Securities and Exchange Commission to tighten the rules governing the game.

Spitzenberger said he "over-allocated" his money when he shorted another semiconductor maker and a toy company last spring. The semiconductor stock ran up when an analyst touted the company, costing Spitzenberger thousands of dollars.

That experience moved him to send a letter in response to the SEC's December 1999 request for comments on possible changes to Rule 10a-1, which regulates short selling. Every day, Wall Street market makers short initial public offerings, sell short on down ticks and short stocks for which they don't have certificates. They do it, Spitzenberger said, even to stocks their own firms are recommending.

Complaints about market makers are common among the hundreds of letters sent to the commission. Letter writers said shorting stocks that are not listed on the exchanges or the Nasdaq National Market System - i.e. the Nasdaq OTC Bulletin Board, Small Caps and Pink Sheets by market makers - is common. The SEC lacks the authority to regulate shares that are not traded on an exchange. The National Association of Securities Dealers' (NASD) rule mimics 10a-1.

Spitzenberger admitted in an interview that he had shorted IPOs himself by trading through offshore exchanges.

Shorting an IPO within 30 days of the offering is forbidden by the SEC, as is shorting a stock when its price is falling.

In requesting comments about changing Rule10a-1, the SEC said exchanges and self-governing bodies such as the NASD already use sophisticated surveillance tools to monitor market activity. Short selling, the SEC noted, is integral to trading baskets of securities and is instrumental in sophisticated investment models such as hedging options positions and arbitrage.

The commission asked for feedback on a number of items, including what price should be used in shorting stock in after-hour trading, the possibility of eliminating the uptick rule and what the reporting requirements should be for brokers who short. The uptick rule limits investors to shorting only when the price is rising. The SEC worries that if that rule were eliminated, market professionals could manipulate stock prices at the expense of nonprofessionals.

The Island ECN, an electronic communications network that gives investors access to the market, advocates abolishing parts of the rule. There is no market rationale for regulating short selling, said Chris Concannon, associate general counsel at Island. It simply inhibits downward price movement, he argued, while there is no inhibitor on upward movement. He also said there is no evidence that the lack of rules for OTC and Small Caps have led to abuse.

Concannon said Island backs changes dealing with after-hours trading, modifications to the uptick rule and excluding some actively traded securities from regulation because surveillance can detect manipulation of these stocks.



To: FESHBACH_DISCIPLE who wrote (43696)11/27/2000 1:14:58 PM
From: The Phoenix  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 77400
 
Feshbach,

I responded to your post on margins.

Message 14871211

and you have nothing to say. Any additional comments?

OG