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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: mst2000 who wrote (119700)12/27/2000 12:09:55 PM
From: Zoltan!  Respond to of 769667
 
You are wrong. It was 7-2. 5-4 for the specific remedy.



To: mst2000 who wrote (119700)12/27/2000 12:53:35 PM
From: Zoltan!  Respond to of 769667
 
December 14, 2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A Muddled Ruling
By Michael W. McConnell, a professor at the University of Utah College of Law.

The U.S. Supreme Court defied predictions of a partisan split. Seven justices joined in a decision holding that the manual recount, as ordered by the Supreme Court of Florida, would be unconstitutional. That achievement is a tribute to the institution. Special credit goes to Justices Stephen Breyer and David Souter, who must have felt ideological tugs to decide in Al Gore's favor. They join an honor roll of liberal Democratic judges in Florida who put the law ahead of what must have been a strong partisan temptation.


On the radio, I have heard this decision described as "sharply split." But it was not. To be sure, the justices divided on the issue of remedy, but on the central question of whether to affirm or reverse the Florida Supreme Court, they were close to unanimous.


Manual Recount

That 7-2 decision rested on a simple premise: If there is going to be a manual recount, it should be conducted properly. It is not permissible for some counters to treat unperforated ballots as votes, and others as nonvotes. Nor is there any apparent reason to count undervotes but not overvotes. And the Florida court's decision to certify dubious results from Broward County and the most heavily Democratic precincts of Miami-Dade, without any judicial scrutiny, had no legitimate justification. Any of these errors might be of sufficient magnitude, in so close an election, to swing the result. It is no surprise that seven justices of the Supreme Court would hold that a recount under these conditions is unlawful.

To be sure, there are good arguments that there should not have been a manual recount at all. The Florida Supreme Court's ruling involved substantial alteration of the voting scheme as set forth in the Florida election code. Only "legal votes" may be counted, and the most straightforward definition of a "legal vote" is one that was in compliance with the clear voting instructions.

Moreover, the Florida statutes entrust the primary responsibility for vote counting to county boards, subject to the supervision of the secretary of state, with judicial review to ensure that they have not abused their discretion. For the state supreme court to transfer this authority to the courts was a significant change.

Finally, the Florida law clearly states that if a manual recount is ordered, it must include "all ballots." This is an important safeguard against cherry picking. Yet the Florida court ordered a manual recount only of the undervotes.

Ordinarily, these would be issues of state law, on which the state courts are the final authority. But Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution, which provides that electors must be chosen in the manner directed by the state legislature, requires federal review to ensure that the state courts have followed the mandates of the state legislature, instead of their own preferences on election procedures. This issue is a federal question in the unique circumstance of the choice of electors. George W. Bush's lawyers made a powerful case that the Florida ruling violated that standard.

But only three justices -- William Rehnquist, Antonin Scalia, and Clarence Thomas -- were ultimately persuaded by the Article II argument. The majority rested entirely on the theory that the recount, as ordered by the Florida court, would violate the equal protection of the laws by failing to provide a uniform standard for vote counting, by counting some overvotes and not others, and by failing to recount the challenged results in Broward and Miami-Dade. That rationale was sufficiently uncontroversial to command widespread assent among the justices -- even those presumably favorable to Mr. Gore.

It was far from clear, however, what the high court could do, at this late date, to correct these problems. The Florida Supreme Court placed the U.S. Supreme Court in a very difficult position by ordering a recount, without constitutionally adequate safeguards, at the latest possible date. Conducting a recount under proper standards would take time. Certainly, a recount would prevent the state from meeting Tuesday's deadline for "safe harbor" treatment under federal law. Indeed, it appears all but impossible that the court could have completed a proper recount by the constitutional deadline of Dec. 18, when the electors meet and vote.

Some of the dissenting justices blamed this delay on the Supreme Court's grant of a stay. But that is unfair. Even if there had been no stay, the recount would have to start afresh, and under proper standards. The stay had nothing to do with it. The real cause of the delay was a series of decisions by the Florida Supreme Court. The first was its Nov. 21 decision to reduce the contest period by eight days to permit more recounting prior to certification. The second was its failure to initiate the statewide recount weeks ago, when there was still time to do so on an orderly basis.

The third was its decision, last Friday, to proceed without constitutionally adequate standards. Mr. Gore deserves some of the responsibility for these decisions, since in each case he got what his lawyers had asked for in court.

The question of remedy is the troubling aspect of the decision. The five justices in the majority held that, since there is no time to complete a proper recount by Dec. 12, all recounting must end. Justices Breyer and Souter argued that the real deadline is Dec. 18, and that the court should remand for the Florida court to decide whether to try to accomplish a recount by that time....
interactive.wsj.com@1.cgi?



To: mst2000 who wrote (119700)12/27/2000 1:46:38 PM
From: Thomas A Watson  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 769667
 
I made no mistake, I told no lie. There are talkers and walkers in this world. I consider myself a walker. I've built, I've designed, I've created, I've organized and I don't hide behind a fake pen name and call others liars and dicks and intellectually dishonest. Losers and the dishonest many times will resort to name calling, I do not. I present my case and if the logic of the opposing opinion is stupid in my opinion I call it that way. Only an ignorant, retarded or stupid person advocates positions that are stupid. My prism of analysis takes into account that I am a walker and the wisdom of what I've learned walking is many times not visible to the talkers or those who have not walked in the creative world of science and technology.
watman.com

As a walker yesterday I had and idea to automate looking at investment data. While trading I wrote this script shown in this message Message 15083726
Last night I tweaked another script that took the data and created this web page. watman.com
The iwatch data will be new today and now I have a way of creating a history of iwatch buying and selling.

As to the Supreme Court Decision,
I read it all, I read it carefully, I took the time to publish it in a cute and paste quotable format. watman.com.

This is what the words say.
7 agreed that the recount as it was being done was rotten.

What do you do if it's rotten?
If it is rotten then you stop it. If you are stupid you don't stop it. If you are stupid you believe that a fair method of counting can be devised and that several hundred can be trained to understand it all equally in a few days. If you are stupid you cannot see that the totality of intent of the elections laws of Florida clearly show that the intent of the Legislature of Florida was that no chance would be taken in losing the safe harbor of a Dec 12 certification.

What happened in Florida?
It is 100% clear that the stupid and cowardly Florida Supreme court chose not to define a fair standard as to what is a vote. That stupid and cowardly act of the Florida Supreme Court led to the course of events that transpired.

Any person who is not stupid would conclude that if two side by side counties examine the same kind of ballots that were rejected by the same kind of machines and one group finds one ballot in 10 may be a vote and the other determines that 1 vote in 4 may be a vote that something was really rotten.

When something is that rotten then their is not equal protection. Judges who sit and read words but who have their heads up their butts boortz.com when it comes to actually doing something will whine like
the Supreme Court desenters.

The first time around the 9 Supreme Court Justices said that the not to bright Florida Supreme Court was most likely out to lunch and ignored Federal Law in the Presidential election.

7 Supreme Court Justices were smart enough to know that the recount ordered in Florida with no clue as to what a vote was, was rotten. 5 Supreme court justices knew that when what going on is rotten you stop it.

5 Supreme Court Justices knew what Florida Law is and how stupidly the Florida Supreme Court created a retard's situations.

4 Supreme Court Justices immediately stuck their heads where the sun don't shine boortz.com and issued a lot of words, a virtual diarrhea of unfermented 100% pure feces. It just stinks and in time after fermenting the words will just become fertilizer that grows an understanding of what rational thinking is not. It will become a perfect example of how totally world walking ignorant lawyers and judges use words to try and justify what is so obviously stupid to even a small child.

duuuhhhh!!!!! If the manual recount continued and was finished what was it that was counted anyway. No Standard, several hundred individual's and no standards. A ballot counting machine is calibrated and certified and has perfomance traceable to the accuracy of an atomic cesium clock. Liberal lawyer's and judges figure cesium is what you do when you look in the mirror.

Retard's, stupid, or ignorant people just do not see that's what happened. But on this thread it seems that there is no shortage of liberal year 2000 Mostly Stupid Talkers(mst2000)

As an engineer and not a Lawyer I know what Diligence, diligence and more diligence is. When there is a lack of dilgence I get to do fun work. watman.com

If you have not seen it here is my page with a picture of the First Lawyer. He's posing so you can be proud of him. watman.com

Tom Watson tosiwmee



To: mst2000 who wrote (119700)12/27/2000 4:26:38 PM
From: SecularBull  Respond to of 769667
 
5-4 counts just as much as 9-0, 8-1, 7-2, or 6-3.

Are you going to nag about this for the next eight years?

LoF