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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: hmaly who wrote (131685)2/6/2001 1:08:42 PM
From: stribe30  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 1570932
 
Harry..thanks for that pro-oil "nothing will go wrong if we drill there" spiel.. now.. heres the alternate point of view for you.. written in a fine piece by Time Magazine... some snippets from a long but excellent article.

time.com

"The Last Call Of The Wild"

ANWR is an important, passionate, at-the-barricades issue to the Bushes, and this should not surprise, since both
the present and former president, as well as Dick Cheney, have been, in previous careers, oilmen. Big Oil has
lusted afterthis parcel for more than three decades, ever since the biggest oil strike in U.S. history — an eventual 10 million barrels — was made in 1968 at Prudhoe Bay, just west of ANWR.

...Louie G. John was a leader among the village's 120 citizens. The townsfolk were Gwich'in members of the
Athapaskan Indian group, which numbered — and still numbers — 7,000 and is scattered throughout several
villages in Alaska and northwestern Canada. John spoke softly but passionately of his people's involvement with
caribou and thus with ANWR: "For thousands of years Gwich'in have hunted caribou, even back in nomadic times when we would follow the herd. It's part of our culture. For us, opposing development is like fighting for our lives. The caribou is our spiritual identity, not just our food. "The calving grounds — our grandfathers told us never to
bother that special place in May and June. They said, 'Even a mosquito can kill a caribou calf when it's just born.' We learned that the place was sacred land. Now they want to develop this place, and this could kill caribou. We would be in a bad situation. If the caribou die, it's like part of our body is missing."

There are 182,000 head of caribou in the Porcupine herd, North America's largest. In a typical year, these migratory animals inhabit the coastal plain of ANWR during their sensitive late-spring calving period. This coastal plain has come to be known as the "1002 Area," phrased "ten-oh-two" in An-war-ese. .....

...In the mid-'80s Interior conducted a study that concluded the caribou herd could decline by as much as 40 percent if the "core calving areas" within the 1002 Area were invaded by future developers. In 1987 the oil-potential report finally came out, and Interior changed its tune — big time. The department now said there were no "core" calving areas and that it had been an "error" to project a 40 percent caribou decline. Interior's new recommendation was: Develop the whole coastal plain, because an oil strike could produce 600 million to 9.2 billion barrels [a figure revised upward, by the year 2000, to 14 billion barrels].

Even though Interior admitted the chances of such a strike were only 19 percent — one-in-five odds — the oil
industry took heart and the Indians grew worried.

Suppose the caribou herd is diminished. Only a very few people are impacted by this. The federal government
estimates a many-hundred-billion-dollar prospect beneath the 1002. And yet we're being asked to take into account the objections of a very few people. Eminent domain cases cause discomfort every day. But the Gwich'ins' isn't a typical eminent domain case. Theirs is an important request. If our society is unable to
allow them their eternal culture, just as we may be incapable of allowing the caribou their traditional birthing
ground, then what does that say about us? Recalling other Indians, recalling the buffalo, maybe there's reason to
worry about that answer.


......there's evidence that deleterious effects to large wildlife have extended south from the Prudhoe Bay oilfields. The Dall sheep population of the western and central Brooks Range is declining, possibly due to activity in Prudhoe. Even with advancements in production techniques and technology, few would contend that drilling would have no impact, or that the impact could never extend beyond the immediate area.

.........They (the environmentalists and Natives -St.) seemed resolutely unwilling to bargain with Big Oil, or those whom they considered Big Oil's representatives in Congress. I asked about the basis for their distrust.

"Oil companies misrepresent everything," said Alexander. "Look at their national-security argument."

That argument, which gained great prominence during the Gulf War, maintains that ANWR development is important to our security because the U.S. shouldn't be too heavily dependent upon foreign oil.The oil lobby contends that ANWR oilfields could ameliorate a dangerous situation. The Interior Department estimates that the U.S. has more than 50 billion barrels of crude outside known oil fields that could be put into production with existing technology. ANWR's is the largest single deposit among this untapped reserve. ANWR is seen by some as our biggest unloaded energy cannon.

"The national security argument doesn't hold water," insisted Blake. "Not when you consider that there's no plan
to conserve the oil we're wasting. The Reagan Administration relaxed all the energy standards and they
haven't been re-tightened."

The Reagan White House rolled back auto fuel-economy regulations and cut funds for solar energy development and mass transit. It was hoped that George Bush senior, the self-professed "environment president," would correct some of this, but when his energy plan was delivered the most glaring omissions were new mileage standards and any incentives for alternative fuels. Throughout the 1980s and into the '90s, the White House successfully opposed moves to raise gasoline taxes and to establish energy-efficiency standards for appliances, standards that would have saved more than a billion barrels of oil by century's end. The White House attitude caused an undeniable erosion in conservation. In heavily industrialized New England, for instance, oil use by
utilities dropped by 17 percent from 1983 to 1985, but then soared 25 percent in '86 and has kept climbing. In 1990, 40 percent of New England's power needs were met by oil, 31 percent more than in 1985. New England's surge — or slide, if you want to look at it that way — was mirrored nationwide. From 1986 though '89 Americans burned between five and nine billion gallons more gasoline than they did in the previous four-year period.


..........."I'm not anti-oil per se, and maybe someday we'll need to drill for ANWR's oil," Alice Rivlin told me a decade ago as she sat by the eastern shore of the Hulahula River. Rivlin, chairman of the Wilderness Society and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.."But we don't need to drill now. We're wasting oil; we don't need more of it to waste. So it would be good to win the ANWR fight from a commonsense perspective — to prove we are not a silly, wasteful society.

Rivlin's right about one thing: There's no need to develop ANWR right now. Proof of this came in the aftermath of the Exxon Valdez oil spill. The U.S. House Appropriations Committee overrode the objections of Big Oil and issued a one-year ban on drilling in large areas off the California, New England, mid-Atlantic and Florida coasts. It also banned oil and gas exploration in Alaska's Bristol Bay. The committee certainly wouldn't have acted as precipitously as it did if the modern USA were in any kind of oil crunch. Moreover, there are thousands of already granted oil leases nationwide that are not being developed [a fact that remains true in 2001]. And a last bit of evidence: Since losing a $150-million-per-year state tax break because of the Valdez incident, the Alaskan oil industry has said — rather petulantly, and over and over — that it might not even explore, let alone develop, some sites in the Arctic Ocean that are currently open to it.

....This caribou trait has a significance in the ANWR debate. Development advocates point to the Central Arctic Herd's nonchalent attitude regarding the Alaskan Pipeline, which was completed in 1977, as proof that drilling in the 1002 will not adversely affect the Porcupine Herd. The argument was memorably synopsized in 1988 by Presidential candidate George Bush when he said, "I'd like to see us open up that Arctic Refuge, and that's important. Because it was said once, remember, when they built that pipeline, 'Don't build the pipeline, you get rid of the caribou.' The caribou love it! They rub up against it and have babies. There are more caribou in Alaska than you can shake a stick at!"

The statement is more than a rather bizarre view of the procreative process. It's wholly misleading.

First, the Central Arctic Herd migrates north-south in the direction of the pipeline, and so is relatively unbothered by the parallel pipe. The Porcupine Herd travels east-west, and this pattern would intersect with the proposed pipeline extension linking 1002 oilfields to the Trans-Alaskan tube.

Moreover, the Central Arctic isn't necessarily a good model for the Porcupine Herd. "Many conclusions probably
apply to both herds," Tom McCabe, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's director of terrestrial research in the
1002 Area, told me. "But a major caveat is that the Porcupine Herd is 10 times larger than the Central Arctic.
The chances that one or two animals will react adversely to development in a large herd, and then spook the whole herd, is, of course, much greater than in a small herd."

Big Oil's attempts to paint a pretty picture of development in northern Alaska go further than misrepresenting the caribou situation. Industry, with the apparent collusion of government, has long portrayed the Prudhoe Bay oil
operation as an exemplar of environmentally sound drilling. Again George Bush has been a point man: "I think most people are reasonable enough and fair enough to look back at the record over the years in terms of the pipeline and have found there has been very little damage, if any. Certainly there's been no lasting environmental damage."


In fact, the Prudhoe Bay area has suffered considerable environmental damage, much of it severe and some of it lasting.

In 1987 Rep. George Miller (D-Cal.), chairman of the Water and Power Resources Subcommittee of the House
Interior Committee, asked for an update on environmental impacts at Prudhoe so Congress could use the information when considering ANWR. Miller wasn't opposed to developing the 1002, but he wanted to make certain the necessary environmental safeguards were taken. He asked the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to compare actual impacts at Prudhoe with those predicted 16 years earlier in an Environmental Impact Statement.

In December, 1987, F&W gave Miller a summary of its report. This synopsis didn't mention any major
discrepancies between the 1971 EIS and actual damage in the field. It said that in a number of cases the predictions had been on target, and in others damage had been corrected by the oil companies.

Miller asked for the full report and was surprised to find that the Interior Department — which oversees Fish and
Wildlife — was uncooperative. In May, 1988, the 86 pages were leaked to Miller by concerned F&W staffers.
Among the findings in the complete report:

A 500-square-mile area of disturbance was originally predicted for oilfield development, but in fact an
800-square-mile area — 37 percent more — had been disturbed.

While it had been predicted that 6,000 acres of vegetation used by wildlife would be lost, 11,000 had been lost.

Although the original EIS hadn't foreseen any use of freshwater from Alaska's streams and lakes, some 200
million gallons were being used for oilfield operations annually. Furthermore, "the frequency and magnitude of impacts resulting from erosion and sedimentation, alteration of natural drainages, losses or impoundments of surface flow, and oil spills were frequently understated."

Unexpected expansion of offshore operations had damaged marine life. "Impacts to fish resources were
some of the most significant environmental problems directly associated with the construction of the
pipeline...
"Direct and secondary habitat losses resulted in the total estimated loss or displacement of 22,500 birds."

Gravel extraction for development was 60 percent greater than expected. Extant facilities that weren't
foreseen in the EIS included sewage and solid-waste disposal sites, oily waste pits, causeways and
seawater treatment plants.

Although the EIS hadn't addressed pesticide pollution, "intensive" pesticide use had occurred at some
oilfields.

The rise in caribou may be related to declines in predatory wolves and bears. The numbers of Dall sheep and other large mammals had also decreased in and near developed areas.

When Miller went public with the full report in mid-1988, the American Petroleum Institute responded with chutzpah:
"So far more than six billion barrels of oil have been produced on the North Slope in an environmentally sound
and safe way. It is a remarkable record."

Remarkable? Not nearly as remarkable as a pink polar bear. In 1989 a polar bear, stained fluorescent pink after having drunk two industrial poisons, was found dead on the North Slope.

Certainly 21st-century technology and a heightened watchdog attitude would make for more responsible
development in the 1002. But just as certainly, history offers every reason for distrust when we're talking about
getting oil out of Alaska.

............"Don't believe those Interior or any other estimates," cautioned Rivlin. "There has been a consistent
overestimation of revenue projection from oil leases throughout the years. The more the oil companies want a place, the higher revenue is projected. That's part of their strategy — that they have to have it. The country has to have it."



To: hmaly who wrote (131685)2/6/2001 2:51:44 PM
From: tejek  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1570932
 
Ted, the ability to drill sideways underground has been around for years. It was developed for deepwater drilling because of the cost of moving platforms; but also has increased substantially the amount of oil that could be withdrawn from existing wells, so now it is done on land wells also. In fact part of Saddam's reason for the gulf war was that he felt the Kuwaitis were drilling sideways.

Harry,

How is this different from what I said?

Certainly once the wells are drilled; no one needs to man them. I doubt if a caribou will not give birth because there is a building there instead of a tree; and each pump could easily be fenced off so the caribou can't see any movement. Are there risks? Of course. But, managed properly, the risks are miminal. The leaks from the Alaskan pipeline have been mininal; and that technology is 35 yrs old. Drilling Anwar is inevitable. Prudoe bay now provides 22% of our energy needs, but is declining.

All it takes is one oil spill and one of the few remaining pristine areas of this country is gone for good.

The sad part about all this is that no one is certain exactly how much oil is in ANWAR....it may not be worth all the exploratory drilling that is anticipated.

I have nothing against enviromentalists. But the idea that our country will be better off enviromentally without development is just plain hogwash.

Look around, Harry, the country has a lot of development.
Environmentalists are trying to keep what's not developed left that way.

Its hogwash because without the gains we have made in science and technology,the country would be far worse off. For instance, without natural gas drilling, how many forests would we have left if people used wood for heat; and how polluted would this country be if 60% of the people were still heating with coal? Many asian countries, along with India and surrounding countries would have been decimated without new rice strains.

No one said that technology is all bad...it has done good as well as bad. What people are trying to do now is find a balance that mitigates the bad and emphasizes the good.......not a bad goal in my book.

In this country, while many people have concerns about biotech corn, lets face it; altered corn as well as other crops, will be able to do away with pesticides, by putting insects natural poisons into a plant which doesn't have them. It has been shown that the monarch butterfly; if it digests the pollen will be poisoned; which is partially true. But we need to balance that with how many monarchs would have been poisoned with insecticides. On balance, the monarchs will be better off, and so will we.

The monarch is a good example. Like many species of insects and animal, the monarch is stressed. Its winter habitat in Mexico is under duress; so are it summer resting spots in the US. Can you understand that it can't take being poisoned by anything. The world's ecosystem is beginning to struggle, we are losing new species everyday...there is a rare bird in Hawaii that has an incredible song..the last one was seen 5 years ago. This is being repeated everywhere in the world.

A point will be reached when man will begin to struggle because the environment has become too degraded. For every action there is a reaction. There is always a price to be paid when there are missteps and man is making a lot of missteps. And, unfortunately, our technology is just not that good...not yet anyways.

By not allowing drilling in Anwar, and other areas, you will force this country to do without oil; or pay OPEC. But don't bet that the unforseen consequences will not harm this counrty enviromentally more than the drilling itself.

There is an alternative..conservation. Other developed countries are doing it..why can't we? Many countries through rail subsidies strongly support rail systems that are effective in transporting people, using less fuel per person than other means of transportion. Some of these subsidies are made possible by taxes placed on gas consumption which in turn encourages a reduction in consumption.

The demand for good rail by these countries has resulted in trains that now have speeds that exceed 200 mph and make 500 mile trips a great and fast experience as opposed to being jammed into a plane. However we in the US are still trying to decide whether we want a passenger rail system at all. On many routes the equipment is over 20 years old. In spite of that, rail ridership has increased substantially in the last few years. Where there were 4 trains per day on the route between LA and San Diego [of all places], there are not 24.

This rail debate has gone on for 20 years with the major concern of Congress being the millions to be spent on subsidies. This is the same Congress that blows billions on a star wars defense system that never gets built but suddenly becomes very niggardly when it has to deal with trains.

This is one of many examples where we choose to lag behind other countries, and are unwilling to take the necessary steps to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. Where we seemingly refuse to take advantage of technology to improve our lives and the environment simultaneously. Scumbria talks about leaving a legacy of budget debt to our children......add to that our need for obsessive consumption.

ted