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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (5315)	2/9/2001 5:33:48 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

OK. So you're relying on society to support you in the "implementation" of your rights. Your RIGHT exists independent of implementation but still needs implementation by society to guarantee it. I've been saying that the right has two halves, the claimed freedom and the societal support. Are we finally saying the same thing? I'm not Solon, and I know Solon has a diffrent opinion about rights then I do, but I think we would probably agree on my opinion on this matter. I believe what you would call the claimed freedom is the right. The societal support is simply recognizeing and enforcing that right. In my opinion you still have that right should society choose not to accept, support and defend it. Of course having that right might not do you much practical good as you are being tortured, killed, or enslaved. Tim

To: Lane3 who wrote (5315)	2/10/2001 8:01:10 AM
From: Solon	Respond to of 82486

Are we finally saying the same thing? I heard what you were saying on day 1. Nor have I said anything diffrent that my first words on tottering feet. "Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law" ...that human rights should be protected by the rules of law...in other words, the RIGHTS were justified by reason. Now they are being codified and given a legal framework hrweb.org A Serbian child who is shot to enforce human rights, suffers just as much pain, as an American or British child. The DECLARATION of "rights". "The ethical system of rights It is easy to summarise the claims made by advocates of human rights. Generally, rights have the following characteristics... a right is declared by one person or organisation, for another person usually, a right is declared by one person or organisation, for all human beings the consent of the other person or persons is not necessary, for the right to be declared there are certain actions (or restraint from certain actions) which constitute 'respect' of the right these actions (or restraint from action) may legitimately be taken there is usually a moral duty to take these actions (or this restraint from action) the person with the right has no moral grounds to oppose this action - even if they have not consented to the right in the first place therefore there are certain actions which may legitimately be taken against another, since they fulfil a moral obligation to respect a right, and these actions do not constitute a harm since there is a moral obligation to these actions, they are not wrong, even if consent for them is explicitly refused, and even if the person affected considers them a harm These are the far-reaching claims made by all advocates of rights, and especially by the human rights lobby. It is obvious, even from this summary, that the logic of rights interferes with the principle of moral autonomy." web.inter.nl.net