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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Neocon who wrote (6681)	2/27/2001 11:34:07 AM
From: Solon	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

You defined "stewardship" as: "1 : the office, duties, and obligations of a steward..." And I gave you the defintition of "STEWARD" (which your defintion refers to). Again: 1 : one employed in a large household or estate to manage domestic concerns (as the supervision of servants, collection of rents, and keeping of accounts) Actually, you are quite mistaken. I wasn't lurking I am not mistaken. I did not say you were lurking. I noticed that when brees used dominion, he used it in the context of responsibility for others Now why would you notice that, when I noticed him say "exert control" over others, and the context (as you put it) of "responsibility", was when he paraphrased my statement regarding not having any claims upon him--and changed the meaning so as to intentionally misinform, mislead, and insult? As for control, we do not seek control because we are animals, we seek control because we are trying to accomplish things. I want my son to grow up healthy and happy, and therefore teach him, give him incentives to do well, and punish him when he transgresses. That is my duty as a father. You can make it into something insidious and call it "control", but it is actually taking care of one's child IMO, YOU seek control because it is rooted in your biology. It may also be rooted in your religion. That is your business. Anyway, you have stated that you seek it. There is a difference between controlling your son, and usurping his autonomy...a differnce between punishment, and guiding his behaviour, because he is under your care and because he does not have legal competency. There is also a difference between YOUR son and other people. RIGHT? About your oddly reiterative question, yes, we have mutual claims upon one another, whether or not they are enforceable. As interlocutors, we each have a right to expect a certain degree of respect and care taken in argument You are not very swift if you find my question "oddly reiterative". I am not being disrepectful. I am stating a fact. I think you know why it was reiterative. And you are not listening. I just told you I don't have a claim upon you, and that you don't have a claim upon me. We both have a RIGHT to be left alone, and whether and how we choose to interact with one another is not through "claims". My social contracts with you and others are a matter of law and not of inherent moral obligation. My moral obligations are to my own nature. I choose to make moral decisions that reduce suffering in the world, and that is none of your business. For example, we are expected to deal honestly and fairly with one another. We are expected to treat one another with a modicum of respect. These claims are reciprocal, and do not involve control of each other, but expectation of self- control WE are expected BY WHOM?? I am not honest with you because you insist I be. I am honest to you because it is a claim I make upon myself. It is coincidence that you appreciate that. If you "CLAIMED" that I ought to paint your house, or help you rob a bank--do you think I would do it?? I don't do things because of you; I do things because of me. I am not your son. You can claim you have Dominion over me; Or you can claim you are my Steward--but these are your private conceits. If I order you off my property, my friend--you're going off...and quicker than a jack rabbit. My autonomy and freedom stand outside of all your repetitive "claims". My actions in society are free choices to cooperate in a lawful structure. My relationships with people are free choices to honor my personal set of values. I am free to leave society whenever I wish. I make no claims upon you other than to respect my freedom which is a claim I make from you. I do not CONTROL your thoughts, or your behaviour, nor do I wish to. I am NOT your Steward, so I am afraid you are simply going to have to take responsibility for your own actions. Sorry!

To: Neocon who wrote (6681)	2/27/2001 11:52:36 AM
From: one_less	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 82486

Well put.."Still, the main claim we may have upon one another is a function of our interaction. The claims that we have upon one another are primarily claims of ordinary decency and common courtesy. For example, we are expected to deal honestly and fairly with one another. We are expected to treat one another with a modicum of respect. These claims are reciprocal, and do not involve control of each other, but expectation of self- control......... " I would add to your list "Good will toward others". Which implies the intent to care about the well being of others enough to act on their behalf. BTW...Solon is beaten. He is still rolling out that feeble arguement that somebody wants to take control over him. That issue was dispelled in my original posts which he never adequately addressed. I pointed out that humans are endowed with the ability to influence all other creatures including other human creatures. We do it whether we intend to or not. The only conscionable behavior then, is to influence other creatures including one another as we see it as a possitive influence on the well being of others. Simple fact, as I have pointed out previously and to which he has as yet not responded except to attach another meaning to my words. He admitted these additional meanings are simply his own ramblings and have nothing to do with my position as to how we do indeed have claims on one another. Until he responds on topic, I'll leave the remaining issues to the two of you. Have Peace, brees