I was not being poetic, except incidentally, and I am not sure why you found it obscure. I am merely describing the rise of civilization, and the opportunity created by science, technology, and industry to allow even those at the bottom to profit from it, instead of living in impoverishment, ignorance, and degradation.
I find all of this obscures the argument, and is irrelevent. I am not sure why you think I might diasagree with the perfectly reasonable and simple points of human interdependence, sharing, and cooperation across time?
The argument, if you will choose to remember, was based upon this statement of mine: "We are separate persons. You have no claim upon me, and vice versa."--after which followed a disputation. The context of the discussion before and since, made it clear that all concerned understood the emphasis of "CLAIM" was on "DEMAND". Here is the definition (bolding is mine):
Main Entry: 2claim
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : a demand for something due or believed to be due <insurance claim>
2 a : a right to something; specifically : a title to a debt, privilege, or other thing in the possession of another b : an assertion open to challenge <a claim of authenticity>
3 : something that is claimed; especially : a tract of land staked out
Let us look further:
"DEMAND, CLAIM, REQUIRE, EXACT mean to ask or call for something as due or as necessary. DEMAND implies peremptoriness and insistence and often the right to make requests that are to be regarded as commands <demanded payment of the debt>. CLAIM implies a demand for the delivery or concession of something due as one's own or one's right <claimed the right to manage his own affairs..."
This is to confirm that we were all using the PRIMARY meaning of claim as to DEMAND. A demand always implies the right or authority to enforce a desire. I do not wish to be forced by you to meet your desires. Provided I have not violated your fundamental property rights to your body and your mind--I don't think I ought to be forced to accede to your demands and claims. As I told you, I make no such demands upon you.
Of course...cooperation, where people interact VOLUNTARILY for mutual benefit, is a good thing--but even cooperation cannot be DEMANDED--at least not from me.
You are already aware from past posts, that I am not referring to social contracts where citizens have voluntarily agreed to certain forms of cooperation, etc. I was talking about your claimed right to demand something from me as your due--leaving aside the particulars of our social contracts: I.E. as an a priori RIGHT.
I have no disagreement about your poetry for humankind except that it is irrelevent to this. However, since you brought it up, why don't we mention the other side, where it is shown that, when initiated force is allowed--some CLAIMS/DEMANDS are simply stronger than others...
smh.com.au
'They fell straight away as they were chopped'
By John Aglionby, in Parenggean, Borneo
"When migrants from Madura gathered in the village of Parenggean at 7pm on Sunday they were told they would be evacuated to the refugee camp in Sampit, 100 kilometres south.
Instead of being taken to safety, 118 of the 392 Madurese who were hoping to escape ethnic cleansing by the indigenous Dayaks were taken down the road to a school playing field. There they were forced off the trucks and hacked to death.
"It was crazy, it was so sadistic," said Hairul Saleh, who watched in horror from his home 20 metres away. "They had no idea what was happening to them. They clearly thought they were being taken to Sampit."
Mr Saleh's friend Marjo, who watched the carnage with him, added: "As they got down from the trucks, they were killed straight away ... There was no way they could have run away. They fell straight away as they were chopped. Some of them were slashed up to 10 times."
The slaughter was illuminated by nothing more than truck headlights and a few torches - the Dayak thugs had stormed the village electricity station beforehand, taken its staff hostage, and switched off the power.
Mr Marjo and Mr Saleh saw three trucks arrive, and their occupants murdered in the same brutal way. Then, just as the occupants of the fourth truck were being murdered, about 45 minutes after the first killing took place, something akin to divine inspiration occurred, said Rukmana Priyatna, the sub-district chief.
"Someone screamed out: 'Special forces troops are coming.' The executioners ran off, which gave the [Madurese] the opportunity to run as well."
For some reason the Dayaks, who came from a neighbouring area, regrouped but decided that they had sated their bloodlust, and so spared the Madurese still waiting in the village.
The 60 Dayaks, who were led by a man called Ibur and a Government-appointed neighbourhood chief, calmly returned to their trucks and drove off.
Mr Priyatna returned almost immediately to the killing field. "The first thing that struck me when I reached the football field was the murder of the babies, the old people and the women," he said. "They were all still there. They were all piled up together. About six had been beheaded."
Mr Priyatna had convened a meeting on Sunday morning in an attempt to prevent more deaths in his sub-district.
"The attitude of the Dayak community groups was that any remaining Madurese should be murdered, whereas my attitude was that they should not live here but that they should be allowed to stay alive," he said.
The compromise reached after two hours of debate was to give the Government and security forces five days to evacuate the 500 or so Madurese thought to be hiding in the jungle. Officials relayed the news to the Madurese over mosque loudspeakers.
"The announcement encouraged all those refugees in the forest to come out and that the local community would help them and give them food," Mr Priyatna said.
Within four hours 392 people had come out of hiding and been taken to Parenggean.
Mr Priyatna's well-laid plans turned to tragedy when Ibur and 30 men armed with machetes, spears and a few home-made shotguns arrived from a neighbouring district, Kuala Kuayan, and then two more trucks of heavily armed Dayaks arrived from Sanggai to reinforce them.
"It was as if they were in a trance, drunk, unaware of what they were doing," Mr Saleh said. Six police officers were present, all armed with M-16s, but they ran off scared."
As I told you before: I have no claim upon you; You have no claim upon me. Any interaction that occurs between us will be on a voluntary basis. I owe you nothing. Only when choice is free and uncoerced can it be moral and meaningful. Your idea of CLAIMS/DEMANDS is barbaric, although I know you do not mean it to be. |
