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To: Chip McVickar who wrote (1417)	3/2/2001 1:07:44 PM
From: Raymond Duray	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 12411

Chip, Big thing around here is Organic. Fastest Growing Food Markets are those who sell organic fruits, vegetables, and meats. It's a national trend. Not just your area. When I was a food buyer for a local food co-op in Eugene, OR in the mid-70's, I resisted the organic movement because the organic farmers were basically city kids with no clue as to efficient farming technique and a hysterical reaction to the prudent use of pesticides, and other vector control. I could get perfectly safe wonderful carrots from a fourth generation, exceptionally responsible local farmer for ten cents a pound, or I could buy them for 50% more from the freshly minted hippie farmers who had organic religion and were terrible at production. My vote was for value. In a showdown in a co-op meeting, the hysterics voted me down and we went organic. :( I still see a lot of hocus pocus to the claim, but that's just me.... Here in Bend, we have a brand new Wild Oats Market and it's doing a thriving business, though it rivals Neimann-Marcus with its needless markups. I hate to say this Raymond, but organic farming is here to stay. Actually, I think it is a wonderful development and the way of the future. All the factory farming methods that are being pioneered in England point out just how terrible the corporate farm approach is for the land, the animals, and the consumer. Organic makes tremendous sense to me. It will take a while for it to become efficient, but that's just the learning curve at work. Dumping vast quantities of poisons on our lands has resulted in astonishing declines in songbird populations among other things and I for one would gladly see part of our crops going to support wildlife as part of a healty ecology. did you ever read any of Arnold Toynbee's "Study of History"...? Are you kidding? I read Santayana's most famous quote. You know, the one about those who fail to understand the past.....well, shoot, I figure I ought to have the right to make the same mistakes as my forbears. Why should I have to pioneer new ones? OK, Toynbee, eh? I'll get to it after Chernow's "House of Morgan" which is next on my list. After Dean Ornish's books on why I should be totally organic and vegetarian. Seems the same thing that happened to China will happen to us someday What? What happened to China? Did I miss the news? Did they lose it? Thanks for your thoughts, You are way too generous. Meanderings is more like it. Best, Ray :)

To: Chip McVickar who wrote (1417)	3/3/2001 4:31:48 PM
From: Joan Osland Graffius	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 12411

Chip, I see we have to educate you on farming. Organic farming is not here to stay with most of the farm land in this country. You are looking at the "very" small farmers that grow veggies, some fruits and a small amount of animals for the organic market in their backyard. Most of these farmers are very small and can make a living if they have retirement checks. <g> It is a cottage industry because it is massively labor intensive. At least this is the way it is in Minnesota. These organic farmers hand control insects, weeds, and generally have a few animals to collect the manure and cure it for fertilizer. If you live in Boston, take a trip to an Amish farm and you will get a feeling of what is involved to be an organic farmer. Lets talk about the majority of the farm land in this country. We farm a few 1000 acres in the Red River Valley in North Dakota. This land produces hard and soft wheat, oats, beans, some corn, potatoes, sunflower seeds and has a thriving sugar beat industry. These farmers would not think of going back to organic farming because they would not be able to pay for the fuel to generate the crops. The crops would be at least 90% less in product production. They need pest and weed control; and fertilizer for sufficient production to make a living. Also, the land cost is not a factor in the equation because the great grandfathers, grandfathers and fathers paid for the majority of the land. These young people will purchase a few acres to add to the acreage like their forefathers. You can not find enough human beings on the earth to go into the fields and kill the insects that eat the crops and pick the weeds that starve the crops from moisture. Further more these human being would tramp down the crop. I do not know where you would find the natural fertilizer to make the crops grow. There just is not sufficient amounts of the right kind of animal refuse or the time to cure it, in the world to provide the amount and type of fertilizer required. I have not talked about the economics of capital equipment named John Deere <g>, but tractors over $100,000 and combines over $150,000 gives you a little idea of the costs involved. Also as one poster noted the kind of equipment a farmer has purchased is critical for what they can produce. The equipment for corn is very different than equipment for wheat…now if you want to grow both you need two pieces of harvest equipment at over $150,000 a piece. Also these two crops require different type of equipment for planting. The story goes on and on and on. The farms before weed control, insect control, and fertilizer were small self sufficient entities. They had very little requirements for cash to purchase goods for survival. They build their own building with help from neighbors, grew and manufactured 99% of their own food, constructed their own clothing, etc, etc, etc. Joan