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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: cosmicforce who wrote (8676)	3/15/2001 2:21:01 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 82486

". I'm a pagan I suppose with mildly animistic beliefs. Now I'm not out crusading with my beliefs or trying to make other people adhere to them. I know that the beliefs are fallible as am I. It shouldn't surprise you to know that I am a religious person and belief "absolutely" that God exists; Creator, sustainer, all powerful, all knowing, the works. It might surprise you to know that I consider "beliefs" and "belief systems" to be fundamental to living in this life. It probably would surprise you to know that I don't believe in conversion. I don't believe religious debate ever accomplishes anything beyond scholarship. My religion and all of the ones you mention forbid coersion of any kind in getting people to "believe" in anything. I have seen people come to a religion or change religions but their accounting is ussually the one that they now came to accept, more closely matches what they believe in their heart, than say the religion of their father. If you think about it (and I am sure you have) the two concepts "coersion" and "belief" are incompatable. Similarly, the terms "belief" and "convert" are not a perfect match. Having said all of that I can see why you would have me on your suspect list. However, speaking for myself and anyone I would consider to be a "True Believer" you have nothing to fear from us. The term Fundamentalist Religion carries more of a political tone for me than what I think of when I say belief and belief systems are fundamental to living. I have been in other parts of the world. Trust me, these cultural groups who you fear as oppressive or tyrannical or what ever were that way before religion reached them and will be when it leaves. For this reason I think we give religion a bad rap.

To: cosmicforce who wrote (8676)	3/15/2001 8:55:06 PM
From: thames_sider	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

cosmic, well said. The disadvantage to a debate or argument against religion for someone focussing on science - on observable, replicable fact - is that ultimately we have no way of disproving a "belief", whereas the belief-based argument can and does point to any unknown or unfixed as a justification... whatever is so far unexplained, not immediately obvious to an insufficiently trained mind or simply not understood is taken as proving the religious case. If someone chooses to believe that the Sun revolves around the Earth, because their religious text says it is so... or that mankind did not evolve gradually from less brain-powered primates, but came into being full-formed by act of their God: then all evidence to the contrary can be passed off as a snare laid by a/the devil... so, well, rational argument simply cannot win. The opposing argument is not based on the same referents, and does not permit of (dis)proof. It becomes something of opinion, not fact.