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Politics : Should God be replaced? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Chris land who wrote (7159)3/24/2001 6:10:05 AM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
" As far as I'm concerned the Christian era started with Adam and Eve so absolutely nothing that Buddha said or did was original. As to similarities between Christ and Buddha I know of none. "

So you don't find any similarities from the account I just gave you of the Buddha curing the leper , and the story that is composed and injected in to
the "gospels" centuries later ?

You did read this wonderful story didn't you ?
Message 15557553

I think what you call " reasonable "
person would think it extremely similar, almost
exactly the same story , only told and made
famous hundreds of years before .

Of the greatest living Master the world has ever known....

But I get the impression from you , that if you say
that the sun is blue, or the ocean is not wet ,
it is always our sacred duty to agree
with you . What is true for you
is not true for others .

We are living in an eternity Chris , a Universe without beginning or end , and the world is not flat , wasn't created 3003 years ago at 7am , & all the animals
didn't just spring spontaneously to life fully formed, after
a Creator worked for six days and rested.
This may have been convenient for those unknown
composers of your scripture because
they knew no better ....it is irrelevant today
other than a curiosity.

" As far as I'm concerned the Christian era started with Adam and Eve so absolutely nothing that Buddha said or did was original. "

That's all very well and good a fable for you to believe
in Chris , but most of the rest of us living in today's
world , tend not to identify with such a pretty legend .
It really is quite fantastical to think that someone
is actually posting on Silicon Investor , on the
world wide internet who actually seriously
believes this kind of Myth and fable be
taken seriously today .

No " reasonable " person today believes this
fairytale ....you do
realize this don't you ?

regards

mars



To: Chris land who wrote (7159)3/24/2001 6:54:22 AM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 28931
 
" Reincarnation is a direct contradiction to the scriptures which state that a man dies only once and then is judged......

.....For Buddha to be used as a tool of satan by promoting this reincarnation jibberish proves that he wasn't enlightened at all but rather lived in total spiritual depravity and darkness and was so far removed from the truth that it's pitiful. "


So Chris what are we going to do with the
all the christians that
call themselves -----> " Born Again...;-)

smile

For one thing Chris , you must understand that Buddha
was not mainly teaching " re-incarnation jibberish ".
his life and teachings were devoted to the restraining
of desires and selfishness , quieting the mind , living
modestly and with compassion , and without dellusion.
A path called the Middle Way , which is in reality
the most difficult path any man or woman can travel.

He may have used re-incarnation in many of his stories
because he wandered and taught for more than 45yrs
around India , where re-incarnation was already an
embedded concept.

He gave many " sermons " ,in many great cities
and wherever he traveled ....and one of the more famous
was called the ----->" Sermon on the Mount" .
More people gathered at the Buddha's feet to
hear one speak on matters of spirituality
, than at any other
time in human history.

The message he came to deliver was timeless and
could have been taught to any , in any land .It
is the message of the truth that is right there
within your own heart , that makes you
part of eternity , as God
intended you to be.

It was a state that he achieved while living
and enduring years of great hardship & extreme
asceticism and denial
al though he was the son of a wealthy King ,
and could have had anything that he desired
of materiality and comfort.

This is hardly what you would call one who was acting
as a tool of satan . Yet that accusation falls easily
from your lips , far too often . It was a state
of living grace he could have taught to any people
in any land , of any age , because it is the truth
within us , our true selves and reality.

You see Chris , It was Buddha that was making the way
for any future " Christ "....and he did say there
would be some who would follow , and become as he had become .
It is a natural process of evolution towards God
and maturity of ourself's spirit while we live .
He taught this and lived simply for over 45yrs ,
until in his 80's
and still teaching right up to the moment
he passed peacfully into --->"That Pure Land "
that follows for one who is enlightened in life.

But it is as I said , the most difficult path
to you'll ever begin .... it is the "razors edge" .
But you go along slowly and steadily , and the light will
start to shine from within, in time .

Your attempt to become a " Christian " is maybe your first step.
I just don't know if it is a step forward
or a step backward in your case. There are Christians
I have heard about , like the Quakers that are
"mindful" & too devoted to seeking the light within,
than to spend time seeking conflict
and condemning the beliefs
of others.

I would call those ---> good Christians.

regards

mars



To: Chris land who wrote (7159)3/24/2001 7:23:22 AM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 28931
 
" The early Christian writers (as well as modern) never gave much credence to Buddha and saw it as their duty to present people the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ as the alternative of spending eternity in hell. "

Sorry Chris , but the early Christians or even the more modern Christian
writers knew very little of what Buddha actually said or
taught for they didn't have even the slightest grasp of those languages or interpreting
the written scriptures until mostly up into the
last century at best.

I'm sorry to inform you of this Chris , but as always
you say whatever is convenient to denounce
what you do not understand.

In almost the majority of cases , what you call
"saving souls from eternal hell " , was in fact
systematic exploitation , colonization ,
and monopoly of human labor and resources.
They paid little heed to even make the
slightest attempt to understand these beliefs
and most advanced spiritual teachings , sacred
to almost 1 1/2 billion today , Indians , Japanese
or Southeast Asians..or the Chinese then.

As for your condemning others to hell, and calling others
robbers, charlatans, witches, pagans, cultists, atheists,
that do not belive as you , I'll leave you with some Einstein to ponder:

" "I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism...."


~ Albert Einstein

regards

Mars



To: Chris land who wrote (7159)3/24/2001 7:53:11 AM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 28931
 
" Christians are not to be tolerant of Buddhist practices but Buddhists are supposed to be tolerant of Christian practices.

....Why? Because Buddhists are expected to acknowledge that there are other paths to enlightenment than just the one talked about by Buddha. "


Well I'm enchanted that we do agree that Buddhists
are tolerant....

.... where it is the Christian egocentricism
that is intolerant at it's worst , and instead of saving
souls , it has been mostly the sad procession
of the centuries of instead of "saving souls",
people were instead enslaved , tortured and
worse , being "saved" from your hells
and promised heaven.

Even Christians warring and terrorizing
other Christians.... this is the legacy
of the peacmaker and Son of god ?

But enough of that talk of the horrible past .
Buddha indeed never taught anything but toloerance
yet he also taught discernment and discretion .
I discern your desire to force your dogma's and
fables on others in every concievable way is
just the repetition of an age old ignorance
of God , yourself , and any true depth
of understanding what even your own Master
was trying to convey to you....

If you were truely wishing to help others see
some glimpse of " eternal light " , and spread the gospel,
you would not be engaged in the perpetual state of combat that we have to be witnessing time after time on
this thread and others .

surely you have more to offer the world than this
age old routine of
"We are the only way and the only truth"...

especially when those truths you are expounding
were taught long before your religion was born,
and taught more clearly , efficaciously , and deeply.

You would say that Buddha was a fraud ? I would challenge
you to tell me then Chris , where was this "Christ"
for the first 30 years of his life ? Surely the son of God
must have been able to have distinguished himself long before his 30th year when he suddenly springs upon the face of history and traveled to the river
of john the baptist to find his calling ?

As you know the word " scripture " , is directly
taken from the Hindu ...their word----->Sruti.
And it seems such another great coincidence
that the world had begun to witness the Hindus
more than 2 centuries before John the baptist,
gathering at the river Ganges for the Holy rite
of bathing, cleansing and purification .

Those were the largest gatherings of people
yet seen on earth back in those times
doing that sacred
and Holy bathing ritual yearly...

And it's just a co-incidence that there is a
John the Baptist doing it by the river Jordan
2 centuries later ?

They were not there to worship satan either Chris.
Though I thought I would save you the trouble of
posting that , in advance.

regards

Mars



To: Chris land who wrote (7159)3/24/2001 9:08:54 AM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 28931
 
" Did Buddha rise from the dead and present himself to his disciples ?

Yes Chris , he did....it is part of the story .
Where do you think christianity got that concept?
Also borrowed from Egyptian, Mithraism ,
or Zorostrianism stories that lived already
and heard of in that region since
long before.

With Buddha , it is the most
compelling fundamental aspect of the greatness
of his teachings and his living spiritual life.
Buddha was a living
embodiment of what it is for a man to live in a state
of true reality beyond reality.

His sacrifices were of the greatest riches and royal position any young man then could have hoped to aspire.
Yet he was drawn to go and live for years with nothing ...
among the wandering ascetics , in the
harshest self denials.
Because he sought the answer to all suffering, the riches meant nothing , and he never looked back till
God revealed himself to Buddha one miraculous day
under the sacred Boddhi tree.

Living for over 80 years until he passed gently
in spirit into that light. Teaching up to
the last breath to his disciples.
There was no heaven or hell for him to go to
he was beyond both ....very hard for
you to understand .

That idea will come to you someday maybe ,much much later....but maybe not in this life .

Buddha was the living ---->" Boddhisatva " ,
The Awakened One ....

He was recognized as having achieved a state
that can only be called "eternal "
while in life . This was no mere philosopher's life
or Prophet , or well intentioned guru .
He was more than any living saint, rabbai or
confused apostle or rural prophet that
you inherit from dusty pages of the ever warring
sons of israel.

He was the living answer to every question
or riddle that could be concieved of by the wisest
of the wise . He was greater than the King of Kings
or any of the prophets of Judah or Pharoah
he was the living breathing touchstone of truth
on earth.

His truths were taught over and over in many ways
in sermons and parables > they were simple truths
but truths that lie at the essence of life ,
beyond our own ensnarement of our own personal perpetual
self dellusions . Yes you could call it "hell", but it
is more correctly called---> samsara or the play of
illusions in life , that we are yet to break free of.

You say you are a "Christian " ? So shed some light
from without your own heart without aforethought
and quoting blind ancient scripture . You
sound off here with your brother and it
is something to be ashamed of and witness.

Arguing about asses and donkeys , as if it
really mattered .

Buddha's truth did not spread farther and faster
than any other teaching the world had ever seen
because of Christian crusaders or islamic warriors
perfumed with the promise of heaven , if they died in battle.

It is a truth that lives then as it does vibrantly today ,
quietly and with dignity and mystery which is ever compelling and real.
Also these teachings have continued to produce the greatest saints and teachers and bringers of peace the world has ever known.

Rising from the dead ?
That's childsplay Chris.

With Buddha you are talking eternity...

regards

Mars



To: Chris land who wrote (7159)3/24/2001 10:07:45 AM
From: 2MAR$  Respond to of 28931
 
" The Sermon at Benares "...by the great Lord and Savior---> Buddha

* Please note that
bhikkus = monks
Tathagata= savior
Dharma=growth and natural personal unfolding...your place in God's scheme of things in the order of the world.
spiritual responsibility.

....this is also not just posted for you Chris , but if you read it it will I think begin to open your eyes. It is also posted for all other curious eyes that wish to
know the words of the world's most reknowned
teacher and his thoughts , long before
Jesus or Mohammed walked the earth. You'll
notice the words of "salvation" , "sermon" are Hindi
in origin as well as the word "scripture."

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

*~* THE SERMON AT BENARES *~*

ON seeing their old teacher approach.... the five bhikkus agreed among themselves not to salute him, nor to address him as a master, but by his name only. "For," so they said, "he has broken his vow and has abandoned holiness. He is no bhikkhu, but Gotama, and Gotama has become a man who lives in abundance and indulges in the pleasures of worldliness." But when the Blessed One approached in a dignified manner, they involuntarily rose from their seats and greeted him in spite of their resolution. Still they called him by his name and addressed him as "friend Gotama."

When they had thus received the Blessed One, he said: "Do not call the Tathagata by his name nor address him as 'friend,' for he is the Buddha, the Holy One. The Buddha looks with a kind heart equally on all living beings, and they therefore call him 'Father.' To disrespect a father is wrong; to despise him, is wicked. The Tathagata, the Buddha continued, does not seek salvation in austerities, but neither does he for that reason indulge in worldly pleasures, nor live in abundance. The Tathagata has found the middle path. "There are two extremes, O bhikkhus, which the man who has given up the world ought not to follow-the habitual practice, on the one hand, of self-indulgence which is unworthy, vain and fit only for the worldly-minded and the habitual practice, on the other hand, of self-mortification, which is painful, useless and unprofitable.

"Neither abstinence from fish and flesh, nor going naked, nor shaving the head, nor wearing matted hair, nor dressing in a rough garment, nor covering oneself with dirt, nor sacrificing to Agni, will cleanse a man who is not free from delusions. Reading the Vedas, making offerings to priests, or sacrifices to the gods, self-mortification by heat or cold and many such penances performed for the sake of immortality, these do not cleanse the man who is not free from delusions. Anger, drunkenness, obstinacy, bigotry, deception, envy, self-praise, disparaging others, superciliousness and evil intentions constitute uncleanness; not verily the eating of flesh.

"A middle path, O bhikkhus avoiding the two extremes, has been discovered by the Tathagata-a path which opens the eyes, and bestows understanding, which leads to peace of mind, to the higher wisdom, to full enlightenment, to Nirvana! What is that middle path, O bhikkhus, avoiding these two extremes, discovered by the Tathagata-that path which opens the eyes, and bestows understanding, which leads to peace of mind, to the higher wisdom, to full enlightenment, to Nirvana? Let me teach you, O bhikkhus, the middle path, which keeps aloof from both extremes. By suffering, the emaciated devotee produces confusion and sickly thoughts in his mind. Mortification is not conducive even to worldly knowledge; how much less to a triumph over the senses! "He who fills his lamp with water will not dispel the darkness, and he who tries to light a fire with rotten wood will fail. And how can any one be free from self by leading a wretched life, if he does not succeed in quenching the fires of lust, if he still hankers after either worldly or heavenly pleasures? But he in whom self has become extinct is free from lust; he will desire neither worldly nor heavenly pleasures, and the satisfaction of his natural wants will not defile him.

However, let him be moderate, let him eat and drink according to the need of the body. "Sensuality is enervating; the self-indulgent man is a slave to his passions, and pleasure-seeking is degrading and vulgar. But to satisfy the necessities of life is not evil. To keep the body in good health is a duty, for otherwise we shall not be able to trim the lamp of wisdom, and keep our minds strong and clear. Water surrounds the lotus flower, but does not wet its petals. This is the middle path, O bhikkhus, that keeps aloof from both extremes." And the Blessed One spoke kindly to his disciples, pitying them for their errors, and pointing out the uselessness of their endeavors, and the ice of ill-will that chilled their hearts melted away under the gentle warmth of the Master's persuasion.

Now the Blessed One set the wheel of the most excellent law rolling, and he began to preach to the five bhikkhus, opening to them the gate of immortality, and showing them the bliss of Nirvana. The Buddha said: "The spokes of the wheel are the rules of pure conduct: justice is the uniformity of their length; wisdom is the tire; modesty and thoughtfulness are the hub in which the immovable axle of truth is fixed. He who recognizes the existence of suffering, its cause, its remedy, and its cessation has fathomed the four noble truths. He will walk in the right path. "Right views will be the torch to light his way. Right aspirations will be his guide. Right speech will be his dwelling-place on the road. His gait will be straight, for it is right behavior. His refreshments will be the right way of earning his livelihood. Right efforts will be his steps: right thoughts his breath; and right contemplation will give him the peace that follows in his footprints.

"Now, this, O bhikkhus, is the noble truth concerning suffering: Birth is attended with pain, decay is painful, disease is painful, death is painful. Union with the unpleasant is painful, painful is separation from the pleasant; and any craving that is unsatisfied, that too is painful. In brief, bodily conditions which spring from attachment are painful. This, then, O bhikkhus, is the noble truth concerning suffering. "Now this, O bhikkhus, is the noble truth concerning the origin of suffering: Verily, it is that craving which causes the renewal of existence, accompanied by sensual delight, seeking satisfaction now here, now there, the craving for the gratification of the passions, the craving for a future life, and the craving for happiness in this life. This, then, O bhikkhus, is the noble truth concerning the origin of suffering. "Now this, O bhikkhus, is the noble truth concerning the destruction of suffering:

Verily, it is the destruction, in which no passion remains, of this very thirst; it is the laying aside of, the being free from, the dwelling no longer upon this thirst. This, then, O bhikkhus, is the noble truth concerning the destruction of suffering. "Now, this, O bhikkhus, is the noble truth concerning the way which leads to the destruction of sorrow. Verily, it is this noble eightfold path; that is to say: Right views; right aspirations; right speech; right behavior; right livelihood; right effort; right thoughts; and right contemplation. This, then, O bhikkhus, is the noble truth concerning the destruction of sorrow. "By the practice of loving-kindness I have attained liberation of heart, and thus I am assured that I shall never return in renewed births. I have even now attained Nirvana." When the Blessed One had thus set the royal chariot wheel of truth rolling onward, a rapture thrilled through all the universes. The devas left their heavenly abodes to listen to the sweetness of the truth; the saints that had parted from life crowded around the great teacher to receive the glad tidings; even the animals of the earth felt the bliss that rested upon the words of the Tathagata: and all the creatures of the host of sentient beings, gods, men, and beasts, hearing the message of deliverance, received and understood it in their own language.

And when the doctrine was propounded, the venerable Kondanna, the oldest one among the five bhikkhus, discerned the truth with his mental eye, and he said: "Truly, O Buddha, our Lord, thou hast found the truth!" Then the other bhikkhus too, joined him and exclaimed: "Truly, thou art the Buddha, thou hast found the truth." And the devas and saints and all the good spirits of the departed generations that had listened to the sermon of the Tathagata, joyfully received the doctrine and shouted: "Truly, the Blessed One has founded the kingdom of righteousness. The Blessed One has moved the earth; he has set the wheel of Truth rolling, which by no one in the universe, be he god or man, can ever be turned back. The kingdom of Truth will be preached upon earth; it will spread; and righteousness, good-will, and peace will reign among mankind."

HAVING pointed out to the five bhikkhus the truth, the Buddha said: "A man that stands alone, having decided to obey the truth, may be weak and slip back into his old ways. Therefore, stand ye together, assist one another, and strengthen one another efforts.

Be like unto brothers; one in love, one in holiness, and one in your zeal for the truth. Spread the truth and preach the doctrine in all quarters of the world, so that in the end all living creatures will be citizens of the kingdom of righteousness. This is the holy brotherhood; this is the church, the congregation of the saints of the Buddha; this is the Sangha that establishes a communion among all those who have taken their refuge in the Buddha." Kondanna was the first disciple of the Buddha who had thoroughly grasped the doctrine of the Holy One, and the Tathagata looking into his heart said: "Truly, Kondanna has understood the truth."

Therefore the venerable Kondanna received the name "Annata-Kondanna that is, "Kondanna who has understood the doctrine." Then the venerable Kondanna spoke to the Buddha and said: "Lord, let us receive the ordination from the blessed One." And the Buddha said: "Come, O bhikkhus! Well taught is the doctrine. Lead a holy life for the extinction of suffering." Then Kondanna and the other bhikkhus uttered three times these solemn vows: "To the Buddha will I look in faith: He, the Perfect One, is holy and supreme.

The Buddha conveys to us instruction, wisdom, and salvation; he is the Blessed One, who knows the law of being; he is the Lord of the world, who yoketh men like oxen, the Teacher of gods and men, the Exalted Buddha. Therefore, to the Buddha will I look in faith. "To the doctrine will I look in faith: well-preached is the doctrine by the Exalted One. The doctrine has been revealed so as to become visible; the doctrine is above time and space.

The doctrine is not based upon hearsay, it means 'Come and see'; the doctrine to welfare; the doctrine is recognized by the wise in their own hearts. Therefore to the doctrine will I look in faith. "To the community will I look in faith; the community of the Buddha's disciples instructs us how to lead a life of righteousness; the community of the Buddha's disciples teaches us how to exercise honesty and justice; the community of the Buddha's disciples shows us how to practice the truth.

They form a brotherhood in kindness and charity, and their saints are worthy of reverence. The community of the Buddha's disciples is founded as a holy brotherhood in which men bind themselves together to teach the behests of rectitude and to do good. Therefore, to the community will I look in faith." The gospel of the Blessed One increased from day to day, and many people came to hear him and to accept the ordination to lead thenceforth a holy life for the sake of the extinction of suffering.

And the Blessed One seeing that it was impossible to attend to all who wanted to hear the truth and receive the ordination, sent out from the number of his disciples such as were to preach the Dharma, and said unto them: "The Dharma and the Vinaya proclaimed by the Tathagata shine forth when they are displayed, and not when they are concealed. But let not this doctrine, so full of truth and so excellent, fall into the hands of those unworthy of it, where it would be despised and contemned, treated shamefully, ridiculed and censured.

I now grant you, O bhikkhus, this permission. Confer henceforth in the different countries the ordination upon those who are eager to receive it, when you find them worthy. "Go ye now, O bhikkhus, for the benefit of the many, for the welfare of mankind, out of compassion for the world. Preach the doctrine which is glorious in the beginning, glorious in the middle, and glorious in the end, in the spirit as well as in the letter.

There are beings whose eyes are scarcely covered with dust, but if the doctrine is not preached to them they cannot attain salvation. Proclaim to them a life of holiness. They will understand the doctrine and accept it." And it became an established custom that the bhikkhus went out preaching while the weather was good, but in the rainy season they came together again and joined their master, to listen to the exhortations of the Tathagata.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

These are the thoughts of the Lord Buddha given to the monks at one of the worlds oldest cities. Their are 40 more years worth of teachings to go along this sermon...so there is much , much more .

And do you see anywhere within it's text , anything
that indicates that this Teacher was a tool of
Satan ?



thanks , the question was completely rhetorical,
please spare us all your answer.

regards

Mars



To: Chris land who wrote (7159)3/24/2001 11:38:16 AM
From: cosmicforce  Respond to of 28931
 
Christians on the other hand know that there is only one way to God

Knowledge is a relative thing. And in this case, imperfect.