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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: greenspirit who wrote (133410)	3/25/2001 2:43:15 AM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 769667

Michael, You make some good points in favor of school vouchers. One question I have is: how do vouchers address the question of cherry-picking? Public schools are currently required to educate all comers, including many handicapped students which businesses might find it more economical to exclude from their customer base. How do you answer the charge that all the best students would be removed from the public schools, leaving them to deal with students that the private schools did not want?

To: greenspirit who wrote (133410)	3/25/2001 2:49:22 AM
From: Kevin Rose	Respond to of 769667

My thoughts (and I warn you I'm tired so it may not make sense, and I make not do justice to your points): 1) California has recently instituted such a 'results oriented reward system'. Schools, and individual teachers, are rewarded for improvements in the standardized STAR tests. Some problems with this include: overemphasis on the test, and not the education ("teaching to the test"); pressure on the kids for a single event (i.e. taking the test); lack of recognition as to the special needs of certain schools (schools with a high percentage of ESL, transitory kids don't get the rewards, and thus can't attract the best teachers, sending them into a downward spiral); difficulty in keeping the top schools at the top (pressure to exclude underperforming kids and ESL kids from the test). But I think it is a step in the right direction. The problem with a 'free market' condition is the extra overhead that it incurs. For example, how much does it cost to produce a can of Coke or Pepsi? Pennies. How much do you pay? Much more. Where does the rest of the money go? ADVERTISING. Increasing or maintaining market share. Attracting buyers. Convincing people that your product is better, even if it is just colored sugar water. Look at what has happened in the 'privatization' of adult education. Once it was easy for anyone to get a student loan, you saw a huge increase in the number of private adult education schools vying for that money. They seem to spend a great deal on advertising, since I see them on TV, in the newspaper, and hear them on the radio. Now, it is coming out that a good number of these were offering poor education and services; they were simply out to make a buck. Others were just plain bad at execution. So, two problems I see coming out of a big shift from public to private schools would be the additional costs of privatization (not limited to advertising; there would have to be 'sales' and other lures, which also cost), and the issue of quality control. To handle the issue of quality control, there would need to be some regulation or standards and review process, which would also need to be government regulated. Hey, we need the FDA so some drug company doesn't kill us all; isn't our kids education as important? Additional problems: not all kids will be able to move to private schools, for a variety of reasons: availability, cost (even with vouchers, people will need to pay tuition; you can't cover the cost with vouchers), ramp-up time needed for complete coverage. So, some kids are stuck in a shrinking public education system, and get the short end of the stick as the reverse economy of scale hits the public schools. I think that some things do not lend themselves well to a 'free market' model. IMO, those include elementary education, food and drug quality regulation, energy, national security, and others I'm too tired to think of. I just think the price of missing the right model or execution is too high (witness our mess in California vis-a-vis our botched 'energy deregulation'). I do agree with your point on the need to kick the current system in the behind. The current system does seem to get entrenched, and the teachers union sometimes digs its heels in deeper than the NRA.

To: greenspirit who wrote (133410)	3/25/2001 12:35:51 PM
From: Thomas A Watson	Respond to of 769667

Dear Micheal, outstanding reasoning of first principle cause and effect. Following on to this is the fact that those selfish dishonest who now use the system structure and know how to work the structure having no rational basis to justify the this structure will use any and all propaganda of fear uncertainty and doubt. They will attack the character of any who threaten their gravy train. They will find an enemy to demonize. Look at that I describing mr bill, and hill and the revs again, Throw in a little gore and the children of America get to be the losermen. tom watson tosiwmee